Total cost + import for Tormach PCNC 440, and alternatives?

You will need the paid for F360 if you want to use multiple tools and rapids for that matter.

Hi Jason, yes I think that is the case anyway, if you want to use 4th axis, so I just have to suck that up. I haven't got Sky Sports, so I think of it as comparable to that!

If I were you Steve I would get your feet under the table with the hobbyist free licence and then wait for Autodesk to offer one of their discounted licence deals that crop up every now and again. I jumped when they offered 50% off on a 3 year deal.

Hi Alan, I use Fusion 360 free version for my 3D printing, but I haven't been offered one of those deals yet! I shall wait and see. Thanks for the tip.

I'll try and add to some of the points previously made. Plus one for the TTS system. I bought a second special collet and use the system for about 80% of the milling and drilling on my Bridgeport.

At the time I bought my Tormach (2009) there wasn't an ATC. I have looked at it since. But it's very expensive and my gut feel was that it isn't robust or reliable. When I was looking at buying the Tormach I also considered Haas. The ATC option was almost as much as the base machine. It's not sufficiently painful to change tools manually to make me look at buying the ATC.

I didn't initially buy a power drawbar but have done so since. Although I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't fitted it yet.

I designed a tooling plate and bought a large (expensive) piece of tooling plate. But I never got around to making the plate and thus far I don't miss it. I'm not sure I'll ever make it.

I didn't buy any books specifically on CNC mills - I just worked it out as I went. The only book I bought was "CNC Programming Handbook" by Peter Smid. It is a professional level book aimed at CNC lathes and mills. I use it as my go to guide for G-code.

My CAM program will only do 4th axis round and round or up and down the axis. For the worm ideally one needs a helical toolpath. Turns out a helical toolpath is quite simple, one line of code:

G01 X-11.450 A2160.000 F0.400

This goes from the current position to the specified value of X and a specified number of degrees in A. So the code is simply a series of the above commands with appropriate starting values of X and Z. I used three tools, 6mm and 4mm endmills for roughing and a tapered end mill to finish the flanks. The feedrate looks odd. That is because I used inverse time feedrates (G93). I had also sorts of trouble getting the original Tormach version of Mach3 to use conventional feedrates for helical paths. In short they never worked. A look at this post will illustrate the whole sorry saga:

Worms

The tailstock is pretty much set in Y by tenons on the underside of the body. To set in Z I used the arbor on which the part sat and tweaked the adjustment until the tip sat nicely in the corresponding countersink. A quick check along the arbor with a DTI will confirm that the arbor is parallel to the table.

Andrew

I recently bought a second-hand CNC mill that is essentially the Wabeco 1410, but with the electronics and axis drives fitted by a US company, MDA Precision. No power draw bar - just the standard Wabeco self-ejecting version - but BT30 spindle. Tool-changing for me at the moment is by swapping tools in an ER32 collet. However, it does have a table-mounted tool-height setter and I find this is to be extremely effective. Mach3 M6 tool-change commands automatically check and set tool height, avoiding any manual measuring or setting. It ain't no tool-changer, but for a hobby user it's a lot cheaper! I haven't explicitly measured repeatability of settings but casual observation suggests it's better than 20u/1thou. If I could speed up the actual tool-change process, it would be even better. The worst bit for me is actually changing the collet in the ER32 closing nut - this one is really tight for the smaller collets.

The other point is that there is an F360 add-on available that fudges the output from F360 to stitch back together the separate one-per-tool outputs from the post-processor, and also can detect when rapids should be used and puts these back in. I have been using it for a little while and although it has a few rough edges, it seems to work. For things like adaptive clearing where there is a lot of tool repositioning, having proper rapid feed saves a lot of machine time. You can find references to it by searching for "Tim Paterson fusion 360" - but use at your own risk! And of course Autodesk might do something to block it at any time. I'm starting to wish I had bought the full licence when Autodesk offered it with the discount a little while back, but that was before I bought the new machine...

When I bought my Tormach I didn't get any of the tool setting equipment. I started by touching off each tool as I used it and on subsequent parts altering the Z value at each tool change (I don't think you can do that in PathPilot at a toolchange). Until I forgot to do so, and the machine drove an M3 tap 20mm deep before starting the spindle. At that point I started measuring each tool as before but then entered the values into the Mach3 tool table and adjusted the post-processing file to use the tool table. I use mostly carbide cutters and got fed up of chipping them when touching off. I also found that I was avoiding the use of multiple tools in one program as it was a pain sorting out the tool table.

So I splashed out and bought the electronic tool height setter. I also made a master tool (number 0) which is longer than most tools I am likely to use. A master tool is bit old school as the modern method is to use the spindle nose. But I feel that is a bit inconvenient on the Tormach, especially with small work pieces. I also bought a Haimer Zero Master and Centro for setting X/Y work offsets. Of course they also get used on the Bridgeport and I have used the Centro on the horizontal mill.

The sequence I use now is one, zero the master tool in Z on the table. Plug in the tool setter and measure each tool in turn. With Mach3 you had to remember to save the tool table before powering off. But PathPilot saves automatically. After measuring tool heights, back to the master tool for the work Z offset and then one or other of the Haimers for X/Y work offsets.

Andrew

Morning Andrew

I echo you sequence. I made my tool zero from a piece of silver steel in a standard TTS collet. It has a domed end and measures the same 'height' as the Haimer under compression at 'zero'.

I have edited the Fusion to Tormach export config to create a G37/G37.1 after every tool change with a soft switch in the export options if I don't need it. While this is a nice automated routine in program, you have to remember to zero the nose on switch on. I have added a visual text prompt to this effect in my spindle warm up routines but still forget if I get distracted ...

Because the 440 has limited Z I also have added a config option for a G53 move to get the tool up and out of the way at every tool change regardless of any G37 activity.

Alan

Andrew I am going to pick your brains one more time here. This thread title ends in " ....and alternatives" so I feel this is still appropriate. I am pretty set on getting a Tormach 770MX. I like PathPilot from what I can glean. I like the online presence of 'assistance and how to's'. I like the American input, I actually rate the Americans very highly in engineering.

But there is one thing nagging me. The pretty Chinese lady Naomi Wu has recently been pushing the SYIL X5 combo and you have to say this is a fair comparison machine. And cheaper. Choice of controller is different. I don't know anything about Siemens or Fanuc but they look very expensive but there are others too. However, the one glaring difference with SYIL is they have now gone for linear rails on 3 axes, much as a Haas has. The Tormach still has dovetails and gib adjustments. That's a negative, right?

Please can I have your honest opinion on the merits of both and whether this is a factor I should bear in mind.

Honestly, this is a machine purchase I am making for the long term and, as such, it is quite important to me to get it right.

I foolishly looked at Naomi Wu's YouTube channel and think I am now mentally scarred for the rest of my days ... what did come to mind however were two things .... support and support and I think that is where Tormach scores.

Going to have a lie down in a darkened room.

I know, Alan, what on Earth was she thinking, choosing the LNC6800 controller option! What a shocker.

From personal experience with my Syil X5 Plus, I would suggest staying as far away from Syil as possible.

The X and Y Axis were not perpendicular to each other by approx 0.8mm over the Y axis travel of 160mm.

The cause was abysmal machining of the Saddle, with obviously no QC at the assembly stage:-

Then there was the Fore - Aft and Left - Right leaning of the column (Z Axis), again caused by crap machining and the comical scraping, that appeared to be done with a hammer and chisel, to disguise the angle grinding bodging:-

As the spindle was also not parallel to the Z Axis, again by a considerable amount, i ended up re machining almost everything and in conjunction with a precision Granite Square, managed to get everything geometrically aligned to within 0.01mm.

Not to mention the total lack of support from both Syil UK and Syil China (although to be fair, I think Syil UK suffer from the same problem with Syil China).

Nick

Edit:- Because the base casting is so flexible, I had to mount the machine on to a cheapish granite surface plate, before then mounting it back on to the stand, to prevent twisting as it was bolted down:-

Just to rub salt into my wounds, it came with an X4 Control panel cover rather than X5, that due to the support issues, took 12 months to get a correct replacement (It took 6 months to get a replacement saddle).

Edited By Nick Hughes on 10/01/2021 14:33:14

Wow, Nick, that looks horrendous. I guess it was a while back. And they are using linear rails now, so I wonder if they have improved in QC. However, that said, if that lack of QC was ever permitted to be the norm, then it is a concern I concede.

My X5 has linear rails (The X4 has dovetails), you can see them in the 3rd and 4th photos. The first photo of the saddle, is the edge that aligns X Axis Carriages and therefore controls the X - Y alignment (the other side has the same method for the Y axis Carriages and was fine).

Ah I see, I wasn't looking carefully enough. Sorry, it is clear to see, I was being dim.

I wish I could afford a machine made in the West! Who's to say a Tormach would be better? Literally, I have been told my machine would come off the ship direct from China to my house. Nobody in the USA or UK will get to even open the box. It's a worry.

Edited By Steve Dunthorne 1 on 10/01/2021 15:47:56

I think that most commercial CNC machines use linear ways. There are several reasons. One, they're cheaper to install. On any moving parts there's stiction and friction. Stiction is how much force is needed to get the parts moving as opposed to keeping them moving. Linear ways have very low, if any, stiction. So they're good for professional machines with high feedrates and even higher rapids. Not sure there's much advantage at the lower speeds on hobby machines.

I don't know anything about Syil machines, although they don't seem to get good reviews on CNCZone. I've always found Tormach tech support to be helpful and reasonably responsive, although I haven't used them recently.

Andrew

I've had my Syil X7 running without problems for a couple of years now, one of the things which encouraged me in the decision was the involvement of UK based Emvio Engineering as the UK agent, customer service has been outstanding.

Is there more than one Emvio as they don't seem to have any CNC machines listed?

Syil maintain their own site for their UK product offerings but Emvio Engineering are the current UK agent for Syil, it used to be some box shipping outfit but now things are much different.

In the end, I plumped for a Tormach machine which I have had for just over a year now, and ended up writing about the whole experience. Just Google my name the the words book and Tormach and you should be able to see. It really is a lovely machine and I highly recommend it to anyone thinking of starting out in cnc like I was.