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Rivers 2.49cc and DC 1cc engines

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Ramon Wilson	17/04/2010 09:29:25
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi Terry, The taper on the needle isn't usually that critical particularly on a sport engine like the Spitfire. I usually make needles from either 18 or16 swg piano wire grinding the taper by hand on the side of the wheel on the off hand grinder. Needs to be a fairly slow taper but not excessively so - only thing to keep in mind is to get it reasonably concentric. Silver steel would be a suitable alternative left in the soft state but of course could be easily bent. Big problem with using ally for the housing is that this needs to be a good fit on the needle (if it's brass then a quick dash of solder sorts that out). Using a piece of the piano wire itself ground across at an acute angle as a reamer produces a good hole, and if you stone the diameter of the wire first you can produce a tight fit. To establish the position in the housing first put the housing on the spraybar and screw home then back off a turn. Measure from the engine to the end of the housing. Remove the housing and put the needle into the spray bar until it stops then mark the needle at the previous dimension. Pushing the needle into the housing (off the engine that is) to this mark will ensure the needle closes before the housing bottoms out. A smear of Loctite helps too. The hole in the spray bar is a # 65 drill. It goes right across and the accepted way is to have the holes set at right angles to the intake ie across the bore though it will work in virtually any position. You may these days have a problem getting fuel - very few model shops seem to stock it in small quantities - let's hear how you get on. Regards - Ramon Just watched the video on the ultrasonic cleaner - truly amazing - and to think I have one bought for cleaning airbrushes (another life - don't ask!) as yet still unused. 'Change of intention' coming up then - thanks Jens. Edited By Ramon Wilson on 17/04/2010 09:36:44 Edited By Ramon Wilson on 17/04/2010 09:54:52
Terryd	17/04/2010 13:26:43
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Thanks for that Ramon, I'll work on those this weekend. Your description of the manufacture of the needle is exactly how I envisaged making it except that I intend to stone the final finish in the lathe with a medium and then fine carborundum stone. I will probably support the needle on a suitably sized wood block so that I can apply reasonable pressure. Now the Good News. After a suitable overnight soak in Meths and a morning bath in Mr Muscle Kitchen Cleaner (my wife's preferred version of the Fairy stuff) and a final 1 hr simmer until tender, the Rivers finally gave way to my tender ministrations and turned over beautifully. There appears to be little or no play anywhere but I stripped down the back end to decoke and de-gum etc. I intend to assemble later after cleaning (using a little light oil on reassembly - I trust a little 3 in 1 would do the trick?). I didn't bother stripping the front end as the bearings and crank felt like new, silky smooth movement with no slop or apparent wear, I feel very lucky. I'll post some more pictures later. Best regards and thanks for the advice - I'll probably need more when I try to run it Terry
Terryd	17/04/2010 13:32:22
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi All, I should also have said thanks to everyone for your help. I have taken all your advice to heart. I want to especially say thanks to mgj for his advice to use boiling water, it was that which finally freed the engine. I took this route after Ian warned about the dangers of direct heat, it is of course all to easy to overdo these things and cause more damage, I appreciate the warning Ian. I do intend to post more pictures so that you can see the results of your advice. I am very grateful. Thanks all - I'll be back!!! Edited By Terryd on 17/04/2010 13:33:22
Ramon Wilson	17/04/2010 14:26:31
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi Terry, That's good news - doesn't matter how you get there as long as you are comfortable with the journey. I'm not surprised at the 'silky' feel to the bearings they really are a remarkable piece of engineering for a model engine - unique (certainly in their day), I think, to Rivers as I don't recall any other manufacturer going to such limits. Reassembling with 3in1 should be okay but at one time this was not recommended for storing an engine (it would stain it) Best thing found for that is hydraulic fluid. Happy flicking, watch the digits and post those pics - Ramon
Terryd	17/04/2010 16:44:58
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi Ramon, Any tips on the initial setup before attempting to start the Rivers? Terry
Ramon Wilson	17/04/2010 19:55:30
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi Terry, SWMBO's had me digging all day -glad to sit down for five mins First off is your fuel fresh. If it's old it may have given off some of it's ether content which will 'confuse' its starting characteristics - may not even fire! Given that it is then needle valve open about 3 turns Finger choke a couple of flicks and a squirt in the exhaust is all that's needed. Make sure ypur fuel tank isn't above the needle valve as you will get gravity feed and it will run rich conversely too low and suction might be inadequate. Ideal position is centre line of tank level with spray bar. If the engine feels 'hard' back off the compression at least a turn. If you really are in doubt back off two or three turns and gradually bring it in as you flick. Once you establish the comp setting starting from cold should just be a matter of opening the needle valve half a turn or so - it will fire and stop for a few times as it gets warm then will pick up and be away - you shouldn't need to alter the compression to any great extent once you are happy with it. Turning the needle valve in will lean it out - too much and the engine will go hard and the revs will die off I would guess running setting will be about 2-1/4 2-1/2 turns open. Running it rich and backing the comp off will give a nice 'burpy' rich run not what she was designed for but nice to do. Big thing is not to let it get too hot Bet it doesn't take much flicking - I can smell it now - must go tea's ready. Have fun, good luck and tell us how you get on. Ramon Edited By Ramon Wilson on 17/04/2010 20:02:25
Terryd	17/04/2010 22:13:35
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi, I bought some fuel a couple of years ago intending to resurrect these engines but I never got round to it. (I used to procrastinate, now I can't be bothered!!) It has been sealed in it's original container so should it be ok or will the ether somehow have evaporated? If so what is the ratio of Ether to fuel as I can obtain some ether from the labs at work. Regards Terry
Ramon Wilson	17/04/2010 23:13:42
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi again Terry, No, that should be fine. It's when its been opened and half gone and the top not really tight that the evaporation can leave it a bit lifeless. The amounts of the three basic ingredients vary depending on performance wanted - a basic 33-33-33 will run an old side port but the Rivers definitely wont like that! Virtually all diesel fuels have an ignition improver (used to be either amyl nitrate or nitrite but try going in a chemist and asking for that these days!) A look at http://www.modeltechnics.com/diesel.htm will give you their mixes. If you are able to get to any of the major model aircraft shows there is a company called Southern Modelcraft (unfortunately no website and they don't (or didn't) supply shops) that usually attend most major events. They specialise in fuels and do two very good diesel mixes at very reasonable prices. Fire it up soon - Ramon
Jens Eirik Skogstad	18/04/2010 06:05:06
400 forum posts 22 photos	Amyl nitrate are difficult to buy then you can use MEKP hardener for glass fiber. MEKP means Methyl Ethylene Ketone peroxide. The glassfiber hardener are easy to buy in all shop who are selling glassfiber hardener. You can use ether from starter fluid for combustion engines in spraybox in case it is impossible to buy ether where you live. Let it cool in freeze box in some hour and empty propellant. Then empty fluid in glass bottle with tight cap for storing if not all fluid are used. The engine can run at BBQ igniter, lamp oil, DERV if kerosene are not available.
Terryd	18/04/2010 10:22:49
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Thanks for that help Jens. As a tyro in this aspect of model engineering I'm learning fast but need lots of advice like this. I do have some fuel as I said earlier but i look forward to mixing my own. Is castor oil still available from Pharmacies here in the UK? Whatever did we do before the internet gave us this ability to spread knowledge and benefit from such a wide range of experience and advice. Brilliant. Here are some of the River's components after cleaning: Here are a couple of pictures of the Rivers, cleaned and re-assembled. I've uploaded a few more for those who may be interested in these Vintage engines.
Ramon Wilson	18/04/2010 10:54:58
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Nice work Terry, looks very clean and mean. Mixing your own is no problem though I think you will probably find castor from the chemist rather expensive volume for volume. Like wise you may have dfficulty getting ether from the same source. I'm not sure about Model Technics now (they used to sell ether at 2.5 ltrs min) but Southern Model Craft who I mentioned do sell all the separate ingredients including an 'ingnition improver' - problem is as said only available at shows but their address is - 58 Salisbury Road, Tonbridge, Kent TN10 4PE - 01732 350691. Very helpful peoplem, they are a 'husband and wife' team and have been mixing and selling fuels for many years. Might be worth giving them a ring. A few years back mixing your own on a sport basis was another 'addition' to the hobby. I don't want to put you off but unless you want to mix a reasonable amount - or rather have to purchase the volumes for a reasonable amount - in these days its probably far easier to use the readily available stuff. It depends on how much you intend to use I guess -all down to paying yer money etc. Jens I'm intrigue by the MEKP haven't heard of using that before - does it work as well as Amyl Nitrate? It is virtually impossible to obtain that over the counter these days. Keep at it - Ramon
Ramon Wilson	18/04/2010 10:55:48
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Sorry about this computer kept showing page cannot be displayed. Obviously the post was going up. Edited By Ramon Wilson on 18/04/2010 10:58:42
Terryd	18/04/2010 12:52:57
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi Ramon, It seems that you have had exactly the same problem as I had. Don't you think it would be a good idea that we should be able to delete our own duplicate posts as well as edit them? Thanks for the compliment by the way, I intend to take your advice and try to stick to ready made fuel as I only intend to run the engines for fun on the bench rather than fly them. The latter may come later if I can resurrect my old models which I built but never flew. By the way, have you managed to make any more progress on the 'ED' engines yet Regards Terry
Ramon Wilson	18/04/2010 14:09:35
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi Terry, Yes I do, it's a bit embarrasing to see what you've done when it's too late. but I think David has already made reference to it elsewhere that for some reason it can't be done. Sticking to bought fuel is probably the best option at his stage but just in case you do decide I have just found 'in the back of the cupboard' a nearly full bottle of 'D A NItrate' which is the stuff sold by Southern MC for ignition improver. You would be most welcome to a drop of this if you need it, just let me know. The 'Racers' are coming on but nothing done since the last post. The parts are all ready for a visit to the bead blaster this week and I have now got all the stuff ready for anodising. Bye for now - Ramon
Terryd	18/04/2010 14:54:51
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi Ramon, These duplicates are very annoying, it's a pity we can't delete them. I think that I remember this error some time ago but I just forgot about it. i'll just have to remember next time I've found my fuel and I'm going to try to run the Rivers some time soon. Thanks for the offer of the A Nitrate, I may take you up on that at a later date. the fuel I have is indeed ModelTech which I bought from a local model shop some time ago but unfortunately like so many other things the shop is no more! Many of the local model shops seem to be closing. I can't find a decent one within 20 miles of here and even then I have to go into the city centre, It's very sad but I suppose that is one of the downsides of the Internet. Best regards Terry
Jens Eirik Skogstad	18/04/2010 19:36:00
400 forum posts 22 photos	Posted by Ramon Wilson on 18/04/2010 10:54:58: Jens I'm intrigue by the MEKP haven't heard of using that before - does it work as well as Amyl Nitrate? It is virtually impossible to obtain that over the counter these days. Keep at it - Ramon Ramon, not nitrites, nitrates only, the peroxides are used as ignition improver. The tema about ignition improver are wrote in the book "Model aero engine encyclopaediae" by Ron Moulton. Medical castor oil works well, but it give black sludge. The alternative are Castrol M who are a castor oil product. The other alternative are motoroil 10W-40 or higher viscosity to example 15W-50. I has used motor oil instead castor oil in model diesel fuel without sign to make problem in the model diesel engines. The model diesel engines are not hot as glow plug engines and there are not burned motor oil out of exhaust port, mostly oil. The diesel engine fuel has better lube than model glow plug engine fuel cause the methanol are dry and without lubricating properties. The model diesel engine fuel has both kerosene and oil as lube for the engine hence the engine will last long life than glow plug engines. Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 18/04/2010 19:37:15
Terryd	18/04/2010 23:15:21
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Hi all, I had a go at starting the old Rivers this afternoon but didn't even get a spark of life out of it. However I was only able to try for about 5 minutes before the venerable old Keil Kraft nylon propellor broke. I suppose after 35 years of neglect the sudden burst of activity was just too much for the poor old thing! I've located a model shop reasonable close to where I work, who sell wooden props, so I'm going to try one of those tomorrow. I'm not sure how much compression there should be on the engine. Is there any rough 'rule of thumb' I cold follow? Is there a 'magic starting fuel' I could use when initially turning the engine over? As I said I am really a complete beginner on this type of engine. Best regards Terry
Jens Eirik Skogstad	18/04/2010 23:55:06
400 forum posts 22 photos	Set the piston at TDC, then move the contrapiston carefully with compression screw until the contrapiston are touching the piston. Then unscrew 1-1/2 - 2 turns. Flip the propeller to the contrapiston are moved up at place by compression. The main needle 3-4 turns out from closed position. Prime the engine careful with some drops fuel in exhaustport. See there are enough fuel in fuel hose and fuel level a bit low under position of spray bar. Now you are ready to start the engine until it will fire up. Flip the propeller fast as possible to generate heat of compression to make fuel ignited, not same as you are flipping the glow plug engine. See the instruction here: http://www.eifflaender.com/instruct.htm
Terryd	19/04/2010 07:21:11
1946 forum posts 179 photos	Thanks for the advice Jens, the PAW information seems quite thorough. I will try this after I get home this evening (hopefully with a new airscrew ). Terry
Ramon Wilson	19/04/2010 10:25:20
1655 forum posts 617 photos	Hi Terry, I'm probably a bit late for you to get his before work but I would get a 9X4 prop if you are able. The engine will turn this with ease and the low pitch will allow the engine to rev freely without loading - 'rev' means run smoothly not 'top screaming whack!'. Your nylon prop has probably suffered with light degradation over the years. A blessing in a way - had it gone whilst running ???????? Jens advice on establishing the starting position may prove problematic if the contra piston is very tight in the bore. Screwing right down over compresses the engine and it could (not will) lead to damage to the con rod. Personally I would think that your problem at this stage with such a short time to get it going is down to lack of good 'flicking' practice. Rivers engines have/had a good reputation for ease of starting so I think it unlikely theres a lot wrong there. If you are right handed set the prop at about 'ten past eight' with the top blade pulling up against compression. At this stage leave the compression where it is only because you say you ran it before so it should be somewhere near. Needle valve as already said about 3 - 31/2 turns. Pull some fuel through by putting your finger over the intake and flicking the prop a couple of times and then flick it several times to bring the fuel through the engine. A squirt of fuel in the exhaust port and then flick a bit harder. If the engine is under compressed it will feel quite 'easy' and unresponsive. If it's over compressed it will feel hard and fairly resistant. If you flood it it may be difficult to get it over compression in which case blow across the exhaust port to clear some of the fuel out of the cylinder. You may need to do this several times - if it keeps flooding close the needle right down, clear the engine of fuel as above then start again with less turns on the needle. Under compressed - keep flicking but at he same time screw the comp screw in a 1/4 turn at a time - this could quite be a few turns - depends on if the comp has been backed off previously. Continue screwing in until a compressive resistance begins and you are getting near. Don't expect it to fire and burst into continous running at first - once you establish the settings it should do that. If - When - it fires it may run a few seconds then increase in revs and the stop - that's too lean and/or slightly undercompressed - open the needle a 1/4 turn and/or increase the comp a tad. If it runs 'hard' - exhaust a bit black - and dies off slowly, revs reducing fairly rapidly thats overcompressed and possibly flooding too so do the opposite. You don't need to use anything else other than the fuel to help starting. Despite what I said previously about the fuel probably being okay (which I still think it should be) if the engine simply won't fire at all then that's the first thing to suspect. You could be flogging the proverbial so sourcing some fresh fuel should be the next step. The one thing that I would strongly advise against is using any form of starter motor on a diesel. You could do some serious damage to the internals - starting a diesel is very definitely a 'feel' thing. Terry, I hope I'm not granny teaching with the above. There's a few 'armfuls' of flicking gone into these marvellous little pieces of engineering over the years - knowing what to do is one thing but trying to put it into words is actually quite difficult and another and very different ball game. Hope this helps as well then Regards - Ramon

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