Member postings for Paul Kemp

Watchmaking to me! Absolutely stunning workmanship, my eyesight and 'fat' fingers keep me away from stuff that size! I can only look in awe at the intricacy and inginuity that went into building that.

Paul.

It is recommended these days that steam feed to water column is a dedicated feed and not tapped off any manifold or shared with any other function. There used to be miniature traction engine designs where the water gauge came off the manifold and as Duncan says when there was a high steam demand on the manifold this lowered the pressure in the manifold and 'lifted' the water giving a false higher reading. Having said it is recommended I can't think of anywhere off hand where it is mandatory that the steam feed to the water gauge is independent, it might be in the new boiler code and I missed it! I have been on full size loco's with independent feeds and have seen the water in the glass lifted up to 1" when the loco was working hard and the steam demand high so even a seperate feed is not a cast iron gaurantee!

FWIW there are designs out there that have on the drawings the water bush for the gauge set below the firebox crown, 4" Foster is one that comes to mind. Some commercial boiler makers are producing boilers to the drawing. This means that when the water is on the bottom nut the firebox crown is dry! This is contrary to the boiler code and normal common sense.

End of the day it depends on how thorough the boiler inspector is and how far he is prepared to excersise his discretion, I have seen several boilers in the past that have previou certificates with this type of issue. I imagine this loco coming from a dealer will come with a certificate? That being the case someone obviously thinks it's OK.....

Paul.

Ron,

Good effort, well done. Might be wrong but from the picture the root of the thread looks quite wide compared to the crest, may be the radius on the tip of the tool was a bit wide? You are getting the hang of this machining lark though! Merry Christmas.

Paul.

Gary,

Your firebox looks quite shallow? Your fire door for introducing fresh coal needs to be far enough above the grate to give some depth of fire, I would guess 1/2 to 3/4" would be about right and there needs to be similar below the grate for air to get in (allowing for a build up of ash as it burns). The door needs to close too so that the combustion air comes up through the fire and not straight in over the top.

Paul.

Ron,

I would think your drawn and cut gauge will be fine. I was castigated recently in a thread on boiler bushes where the OP was asking if BSB (55 degree) or BSC (60 degree) threads would be used in a commercial boiler bush. I replied saying if you make your male fittings 55 degree they will fit either. Apparently this was viewed as dangerous by one authority. I did calculate the difference in width of the thread form and it amounted to only a few tenths. In your case with the belt material being compliant a degree or two either side is not likely to be the end of the world. There is the perfect world and the real world! Nothing wrong in striving for perfection where it's needed but little point in agonising over it where it isn't!

Paul.

Send her back and then see if the Colchester is still available and extend the shed! Even a worn Colchester will do you better than that.

Paul.

Reasonable assumption however can you ever be really sure what you are getting? Even if the supplier gives you a copy certificate unless the plate or bar is stamped you still can't be 100% sure! Much better chance granted. I have a friend who produces several 1000 components a week in his works and orders material from a major metal merchant by the ton. He finds he gets variation these days within bars, not even at bar ends but in the middle! Where in the world the stockholder gets his metal from can make a difference to the quality even when it's certified.

Paul.

Ron,

A carbide centre may wear less but don't forget the centre drilling in the job! That will wear too if not lubricated and / or too tightly adjusted! Don't forget to check once in a while during machining too, if the job warms up it can get longer, increasing the load on the centre. When I was a lad working for Her Majesty they were too tight to give us live centres (far too expensive) so it was dead centres and a pot of tallow!

Paul.

With respect to the Elliott and a few of the comments in this thread;

1. As suggested by Andrew, it wasn't a lot of money comparatively. Even after buying the two VFD's an MT3 ER25 chuck, an MT3 drill chuck and a few other bits and bobs it was still only around half the price of a new Warco VM with a similar sized table (well less than half if you want the Warco power feed as well). But granted it is a fair bit heavier, the column / base and main motor gave a 750kg trailer a run for its money and with the vertical head, knee and table in the back of the LR, it knew it was there!

2. Size; The footprint is only about the same as a larger Warco VM with similar size table. It does need a bit more room around it though as you need space behind to open the rear belt cover and clearance on a wall to be able to push the horizontal over arm back. Height wise for draw bolt removal again not much more than a large Warco.

3. As mentioned by someone the horizontal spindle does not necessarily need a long arbor and over arm support. I have a boring and facing head which fits both spindles (mine are both MT3), I have a short MT3 arbor set up as a boring bar and my 2" face mill being also MT3 fits both spindles. The latter saved a lot of work on the cylinder casting which was set saddle down on the table, I was then able to machine the top with the face mill and the regulator face (with an end mill) and drill all the stud holes in the top. Then with the cylinder still clamped to the table put the face mill in the horizontal spindle and machine the valve chest face. So at one setting I was able to get two datum faces machined exactly at right angles.

Its horses for courses, it's an old machine (pretty well as old as me) and consequently it has some wear, not bad but it's not new and has no warranty! I had to rebuild the power feed Jack shaft as the bush and shaft at the pulley end were goosed (that's a case of make em yourself - you can't call the dealer and order them!). For me, considering my project is a half size engine it's an ideal bit of kit. When I get back to 5" gauge loco's I am sure it will be just as useful.

Tom Seniors and Centecs are just as versatile albeit slightly smaller and a little lighter with the vertical heads and Martin has done some amazing stuff on his, the steering worm was a work of art! My point really was why go for either a H or V when you can have the best of both worlds and as Neil says these older combination machines do have real usability. Before the Elliott came to me I was looking at the large Warco, I am just very pleased now I didn't jump that way, not that there is anything wrong with the Warco but the old lady does offer better options and rigidity.

Paul.

I would suggest you look out for one of these! They don't seem to come up often but they are brilliant 'little' machines with the best of both worlds. Separate motors for horizontal spindle / X axis feed and vertical head, good range of speeds as standard but in combination with VFD's as they are usually 3 phase, speed control is infinite.

It's an Elliott Junior (Omnimill). Vertical head moves in and out on its overarm and swivels in two planes and can get to any area of the table.

That is a 3/4' slot drill on cast iron.

That is a 2" carbide tipped face mill (on steel).

That is a 4DP, 56 tooth gear (its about 16" in diameter).

The knee hand wheel was changed to this bigger version by the previous owner, a very worthwhile mod especially for the amount of handle turning needed on the big gear cutting. I bought this as a result of a chance conversation about this time last year. Took me about 3 months from collection just before Christmas to fettle it, sort out some VFD's to get it up and running. I still have the coolant pump to sort out (it has a built in tank in the base) but the standard pump is belt driven and when reversing the main motor you have to cross the belt, its only real down side. A kind benefactor has given me a stand alone pump which I still need to install. Since commissioning it has done a lot of work on my 6"scale traction engine on cast iron and steel components including cutting all the gears. There is nothing on the new 'hobby' machine market now that comes close to the versatility this machine offers. For its footprint its wonderfully rigid and I love it! If you can find one, grab it! Mine is not for sale!!

Paul.

Ron,

Nice job.

Incidentally I noticed the diamond wheel dresser can be got from Chronos for about £8.

Paul.

Well you have nailed that! Very nice work, looks every bit like it is cast. Well done.

Paul.

Mal,

That drawbar looks excellent, is it a fabrication?

Paul.

Not sure I completely agree with you but I do see your point. Boring and facing heads which are just boring heads with more gizzards are often used in the facing mode on areas producing an interrupted cut and do not seem to suffer unduly but I would completely agree they are not good for ploughing off 1/8"! A lot of the "hobby" boring heads are pretty well built though with a good area of slide so as long as the slide is not extended beyond the body (as shown in the picture) it should be fine. A shorter tool would be good though.

As to the OP any design that holds the tool rigidly in the right orientation is fine. I have a couple of examples of a fourth version to muddy the water further! Lumps of round bar, reduced at the top for a suitable shank and profiled (mine are bevelled) at the bottom to give a bit of clearance, drilled at 45 degrees at a suitable size to take old centre drills with a tapped locking screw hole to clamp. Good use for knackered centre drills!! They work fine too. Grinding the right profile on the tool will have a far greater impact than the lump that is holding it!

Strange how everyone says carbide tips don't like interrupted cuts on the lathe but there are plenty of tipped fly and milling cutters about that do that every day..........

Paul.

Coggy,

First off you seem to be on exactly the right track with your deliberations. BUT you ask the unanswerable question.

Why is it unanswerable? Because I have concluded over the years it's an entirely personal thing related to your experience, skill and expectations! As has already been said it's easier to do small work on a large lathe than large work on a small one. So in terms of your stated interests and aspirations your thoughts to get the largest machine you can accommodate / afford is correct. Most machines in your size range will offer the ability to cut metric and imperial threads so there shouldn't be an issue there.

Your source choices are hobby or commercial machines. Commercial, new, will be well outside your budget, hobby achievable though. Given your requirement for service / support and what you have said a new hobby machine is probably the way to go. There are a lot of good deals about on used commercial grade machines that will give you a great capability at reasonable cost if you can wait for the right one and you are able to judge condition, which from your experince level you probably can't, yet! Example I managed to pick up a Harrison L6 that had never been in a production environment and came with all the bells and whistles, 4 chucks, Burnerd multi size collet chuck and collets, fixed and travelling steadies, face plate, QC tool post and holders, 3ph on VFD for 240v etc etc for well inside your budget - but they don't come like that every day! Accessories for commercial machines (Colchester as an example) can be rare and command high prices so unless you get a used machine of this type with all the kit you may be boxing yourself into a corner.

DRO, I am a time served fitter turner and have never used a lathe with DRO and never found it a problem, for those tickly precision jobs I just stick a DTI on the slide. For a mill a DRO makes a lot more sense, but again not essential. It's once again very much a personal thing rather than a restriction of the machine.

I have 3 lathes, aforementioned Harrison, a hobbymat MD65 (brilliant little machine - too small for you though) and an ML7 (same age as me!). They are all good for various things, none good for everything. I also have access to a large Harrison with an 8' bed, an Edgewick and a Holbrook. They all have varying degrees of wear and various advantages / disadvantages for various jobs but they are all capable in the right hands.

Bottom line is you have to accept that there is not a machine out there that will tick every box. Whatever you get you will find has disadvantages in some respect, it's a case of attitude and determination to do the best you can with what you have that will make a lot more difference to your work than the colour or origin of your machine! It amuses me greatly to read some posts on here criticising the various offerings from hobby suppliers, they are what they are, produced for a non production market at reasonable prices with not as much metal in them as may be ideal for rigidity, even the worst of them can do a reasonable job if you have a bit of patience unless they are a total QC reject!

Its a big decision when you have a finite budget and want to spend it wisely and in a way that will support you into the future but with no real experience. Unfortunately the only way to know if you made the right choice for you is a few years after you do it! You will then realise why there is no single right answer.

Paul.

I know not! Plenty of examples on here of people chasing 2/10 of a thou when 2 thou or sometimes even 12 thou would be perfectly acceptable. I imagine there must be a lot of shadow graphs tucked away in strictly temperature controlled garden sheds and the calibration bills for measuring equipment must be horrendous.

Paul.

True - but normal, in five pages there has only been one or two posts that properly address the original question the rest are opinion and speculation. I conclude that no one on here has recently bought a new myford which was the question posed by th OP. Perhaps that's because no one can afford one or justify the cost over a cheaper product? On the sub topic, interesting I think that when paid direct to the bank most probably it will go to a non interest earning account. The bank are then busy lending that money to others at high rates or busy playing the markets with it until you want it back!

But you are right, quite enough and time to desist.

Paul.

The key clue is 6013 towards the bottom of your list. 6013's should be ideal for what you were doing, as stated they are tolerant of surface contaminants like rust or scale and are considered a reasonable all round rod for general work. One characteristic though is they leave a heavy flux deposit over the weld. You mention you "ground the slag off" - if it was a good weld the flux should just chip off easilly with a tap from an old file or if you are really good, slowly peel itself off as the job cools. If you had to grind it off then I would guess your weld was done moving the rod too fast and possibly at too low an amperage leading to a lack of penetration and slag inclusion in the weld metal itself, it's the latter that will be giving you the issues with machining.

I have recently fabricated the drawbars for my 6" scale traction engine from 8mm plate using 2.5mm 6013 rods at about 85 amps and milled the back faces off after welding to a flat surface, machined fine and you can't see the join!

Paul.

Ron,

I wouldn't dress the sides, only the periphery although I am sure others will tell you differently! Strictly speaking you shouldn't use the sides of the wheel anyway (although I often do for a light truing skim on a tool bit!). For dressing it's less stress for the wheels and the operator to use a single point diamond dresser rather than the Huntingdon type with star wheels. Either make a mess though so cover your machines and have a vacuum cleaner sucking up the dust as you go, you don't want abrasive all over the slides of your machines! Diamond dresser should be relatively cheap, it's a stone set in the end of a length of steel rod about 5/8" diameter as a handle. Can't remember where I got mine, was years ago but I don't remember it breaking the bank, maybe £15 - £20 these days? You can get a pretty good surface to the wheel by gently sliding the dresser across the rest, you can use your finger against the back of the rest as a guide, be careful though especially if there is a gap between the underside of the rest and the guard!

Remember to make sure you have 'paper' washers between the stones and the clamping washers on the spindles and don't horse them up to some horrendous torque!

Paul.

Silly question perhaps but are you sure it's 3.5" and not 2.5"? Not easy to miss measure by 1" and not casting aspersions on your ability with a rule but it has a vague resemblance from memory to LBSC's Fayette. As far as I remember though the design was 2.5" gauge. Happy to be shown as completely wrong on this as I am not an expert by any means on model loco's!

Paul.