Member postings for Paul Kemp

You could always produce an "as built" drawing and some supporting calculations. Given the size I can't see you will be looking for a working pressure of 150psi so it really comes down to whether the inspector chosen is a pragmatic practical fellow or a rules is rules type of guy.

Paul.

Gang mill with two horizontal cutters appropriately spaced. Added bonus you can do the job in half the time

Paul.

Some wonderful stories here that strike a chord. The one common theme though is how these experiences have shaped lives and developed characters. Many of those experiences are not available to the youth of today and you have to wonder is that a positive or negative change.

Paul.

At a guess I would say the overhang from the chuck isn't helping much. I think I would try an HSS boring tool and drop the speed right down.

Paul.

Moved my Harrison L6 on a single axle unbraked plant trailer which in hindsight was probably highly illegal! Harrison info for weights suggested it was OK but possibly not! To get it to the trailer it had to be extracted from the shed it was in, with no room for any lifting kit inside and soft ground outside. Then had to move it about 50' uphill on grass, over a lump of concrete round a drain before getting onto concrete and out onto the road. Took 5 of us about 4 hrs.

What did I learn? Don't use scaffold poles as rollers, use 3/4 solid round bar or water barrel - much more stable. I bought a couple of 8x4 sheets of 3/4 ply and had them ripped lengthways in half, made a good surface on which to move it over the grass (would be the same for gravel). We only removed the tailstock and chuck and set the carriage all the way to the right, lifted with engine crane on the road and then backed trailer in underneath. As suggested, plenty of ratchet straps and blocks to stop it sliding around. It rode quite well, no bouncing!! At the other end backed the trailer up to the building and used the adjustable suspension on the Land Rover to raise the front of the trailer. Built a ramp from end of trailer from the plywood and blocks and using a pull lift to lower down the gradient rolled it straight into position.

In truth it was more of a worry thinking about it than actually doing it. I wouldn't say it was easy but in truth and being sensible it wasn't difficult either. The most risky part was lifting it with the crane. Just make sure you have a steady crew that are not inclined to get too excited and rush ahead, that's when it goes wrong!

Paul.

Welcome to the madhouse Jason. Sounds like you have some good old machines there. Quite a few motorcycle orientated people on here that I am sure will be interested in engaging with you.

Paul.

Well I have been known to push the envelope with work holding but I don't think I would contemplate that on a single m8 stud. A thou or so or not I wouldn't recomend that. At a guess I think m16 would be as small as I would go. I would probably do some calculations on load before committing.

Paul.

Very nice. I was thinking the same as fizzy but he was braver! I couldn't come up with the right words to post a suggestion! That looks to have flowed very well, your inspector should be very happy with that.

Paul.

Mark,

Sounds like you are well on track, previous pictures look really good.

Probably worth emphasising that as you have followed the proper route and involved your inspector from the outset you should be assured of an excellent result and others would be well advised to follow your example. The boiler inspector should be your friend not your foe.

Look forward to more pictures as you progress.

Paul.

I think it is clearly established previously in this thread of being a case of "he who pays the piper calls the tune"!

Neil made the economic case in response to my questions on the costs that this forum is only viable due to the advertising revenue generated. Therefore if one or many of those advertisers decide to withdraw MTM will not support it as a "charity / good will venture" so therefore the "sponsors" have to be placated.

I do not personally agree with this stand but unless it results in the withdrawal of a large number of the forum contributors (in which case as Hopper pointed out) the forum becomes a far less attractive place to ply their wares then nothing will change this policy.

Personally I also think the latest comments extend the policy beyond reasonable limits where a content maker on YouTube may well produce a very informative or useful video with no specific reference to any of the banned suppliers but by nature of them having an association elsewhere it means anything they produce is now innapropriate for this forum.

To my mind this significantly changes what I perceived to be the objectives of maintaining this forum which I assumed was to provide a place for the free exchange of information and to promote the various aspects of the hobby to limiting what may be discussed or communicated as directed by its financiers. Understandable, common but not particularly palatable.

Paul.

+1 for Sandvik carbide scrapers, very good bits of kit.

Bob I am intrigued on your comment in another thread

"second hand lathe, Colchester, Harrison and similar, the bed is hardened and the wear will be in the saddle, not hardened, so it can be scraped out. My Harrison had an error of about 5 thou, but after scraping it is 2-3 tenths."

did you do the scraping?

Paul.

Even if the commercial boiler is not CE marked as long as you can prove it was built before CE marking became mandatory (2002) rings a bell but as its historic it is no longer listed in the orange code (pretty sure it's in the old blue version though) then it can still be tested no problem. There are still a few pre CE boilers incorporated into models that builders are only just completing!

Paul.

Mike,

Thats a really good question and like so many difficult to answer definitively. Several ways to look at it, one being if you build the boiler without drilling for the cylinder studs or steam take off (which many commercial TE boilers are supplied as for obvious reasons, you can do the 2 X WP initial shell test and argue your boiler is structurally sound. Therefore the cylinder is a fitting and not part of the boiler structure (when considering the pressure system). However the PER requires that the pressure system is tested - hence the 1.5 hydraulic after fittings are added. Technically superheaters on a loco are part of the pressure system and should be included in the 1.5 test. Normally with a TE boiler the cylinder will be included with the 1.5 test as it is directly connected to the pressure system and is often steam jacketed. Someone will no doubt argue that by drilling the stud holes and steam take off you are materially altering the boiler from its previous condition although as the original design allows for that this is often overlooked and I think largely irrelevant. The one exception to this would be that any structure like a doubler or adaptor that is soldered to the boiler below the bolted joint for the cylinder is pert of the boiler structure (take the Avelling pressed cylinder mount for example).

So my answer would be your cylinder is a boiler fitting and not part of the boiler structure per se so brass should not be an issue. Niether do I think you will be steaming this 7 days a week so the corrosion issue is a very minor and if it did corrode the effect would most likely be porosity rather than out and out catastrophic failure, so on a risk and rules basis I wouldn't have a problem with the brass flange. Other inspectors may well argue / view the situation differently though so imay we'll be worth asking the question of whoever is going to certify your boiler. Under the model code it is difficult to challange your inspectors decision. Once you have had a certificate though you do have an argument that it was previously tested successfully in the as presented condition and therefore acceptable. In that circumstance the new inspector can only refuse to test it, not fail it (as long as it is not corroded and leaking) and you are free to seek another opinion!

Paul.

Jason,

But does either version show the short barrel, firebox wrapper and joining ring? Bob says supplier says not? That I think was Bob's fundamental point? In which case adopting your previous advice of talking to the certifying inspector the question can be resolved and there is no problem. Unless the inspector says no, which is another can of worms and then maybe Bob can try and send his bits back and set the inspector against the supplier!

As you know my version has a steel boiler - another can of worms altogether lol.

Paul.

John,

Roger makes a good point on size of your garden and turning circle, my 4" Ruston needs a bit over 10' to turn in and that is a small engine, really more like 3". Obviously you can't pick it up. I understand your desire to keep it manageable but I am finding as I get older (and a bit behind you yet) all the bending and kneeling that goes with a small engine is less attractive. Thus I am going the other way 6"! Everything at the right height except the ashpan. Obviously I won't be able to lift it, can't even lift some of the bits! So you make arrangements do you don't have to lift it. Less like watchmaking too! Not suggesting bigger would be better for you but do remember you can't turn your back on the fire on anything less than about 2" for very long.

Paul.

Roger, I think that is the problem? The design hasn't been updated, Bob was commenting the material supplied didn't match his drawing and asked for an updated drawing and was told there isn't one! Material supplied has been sent based on modern convention. The simple answer that will stop all the speculation and posturing that has been given several times is speak to whoever is going to certify the boiler! Job done.

No model drawings are properly controlled and subject to periodic revision, this has been done to death on here many times!

Let the lawyer claim his new Jag, end of the day it won't benefit any of us or Bob because all of a sudden prices for drawings will become unaffordable.

As to material certs, it's irrelevant as the test code does not require certs for silver soldered copper boilers, only TIG welded ("where required by the build procedure" is the relevant quote). It would only be relevant if Bob had requested certs and supplier failed to supply.

Paul.

My thoughts are if anyone thinks a model engineering supplier is giving a competent technical service to a degree they are in la la land where they are selling "drawings" with no manufacturing tolerances and many littered with dimensional errors!

The other issue raised by Dave H is there is no UK constructional code to underpin the model test code to give the inspectors any definitive guidance so you are reliant on the experience and knowledge of the individual inspector and any reference they make to commercial standards.

That said, I do think the "system" as it stands is fit for purpose as if it wasn't there would be boilers exploding left right and centre, insurers would be going bust under the claims, premiums would be rocketing and officialdom would be clamping down hard on the hobby!

If we ignore the hysterics of model boilers are bombs, will distribute shrapnel over many metres if they fail and look at the facts, miniature copper boilers are pretty safe and even one constructed to mediocre standards is very unlikely to fail catastrophically. Probably the most likely failure on a boiler likely to cause injury is poor threads on fittings allowing the fitting to be blown out. I have witnessed the failure of a back head to wrapper joint on a commercially made boiler as it happens which was entirely unspectacular bar the cloud of steam in the cab and the loco coming to a halt. It certainly didn't explode violently and the copper tear itself the shreds!

We should not be cavalier about these things for sure and every effort should be made to ensure as far as possible they are safe but we also should not instill in ourselves and others an illogical fear and suspicion.

Paul.

Bob,

I think you have been reading too many books! You cannot make comparisons between welded steel joint design and silver soldered copper. 2 completely and fundamentally different processes with their own advantages and disadvantages in two completely different materials. I haven't seen the drawings for TT or any constructional advice but I very much doubt there is any serious recommendation to rivet and braze if it leaks. I would think with the age of it the boiler was designed as rivetted and soft solder caulked, the rivets take the stress the solder bungs up the leaks. It's not a method condoned now for new boilers but properly done there is nothing wrong with it and there are still a fair number in service.

There were over 50 Ruston Proctor kits sold by Winson and Modelworks, they came with a ready made and certificated boiler but I haven't seen 50 chuffing round! A lot of part complete models sold are nowhere near the boiler stage, sometimes without motion work completed even so I don't think leaky boilers are the real reason for non completion.

Paul.

Jon,

I have as my little mill what's termed a micro mill which is about the same size, it's badged from various suppliers like machine mart, Chester, Arc ET in various forms. That was DC and the motor used to get hot after about half hour of moderate duty. I burnt one out and then blew the control board ( doing stuff too big for it I may add but that's another story!). Motor cost was about £80, board I think was going to be about £60 but I didn't bother! Found a 3 ph motor with a suitable flange from inverter drive supermarket I think it was for £40 inc and combined that with a VFD from a source that is now unmentionable on here and a make that brings howls of derision and horror! Transformed the machine, I can now run it for hours without it getting warm and it still gets used for stuff too big for it but now without complaint!

My advice would be 3 ph and VFD.

Paul.

I think it might need tropical cable at present or even sub sea cable depending on your location......... In fact an adaptor lead may be a very good suggestion, could have one for all seasons!

I'll get my coat,

Paul.