Member postings for alan frost

I wondered in a recent post to what precision the semiconductor Industry now worked and looked up on Wikipedia "Moores' Law" I remembered the humorous version which assumed semiconductor sales guys sold like car sales guys and went something like

"You remember that last year we sold you a car with the comfort of a Rolls Royce,200mph top speed and 100 miles to the gallon-this year 's model has basically the same spec. but does Mach1 as top speed and 1000 miles to the gallon"

" Yes thats all very well but last year's model cost us £50,000 . How much is this one going to cost us?"

" About ten quid"

The Wkipedia article is a lot more serious but almost equally staggering and a very interesting read. They are now apparently approaching atomic scale transistors on chips but in the main opinions are that Moore's Law will continue to hold until at least 2020.,and probably well beyond.

The sad part of the story is that practically all the big players around when I worked in the industry have sold their semiconductor business as no one except Intel (who made a quantum technology jump) could consistently make a profit. There was always just too much competition,and still is altho it is n't the same guys, although Texas Instruments and AMD and a few other originals are still going.

Regards

Edited By alan frost on 17/11/2014 09:06:51

Edited By alan frost on 17/11/2014 09:18:16

Phil, not at all,I worked in semiconductors, integrated circuits which at the time I retired was just going sub-micron. They are well beyond that now (X ray lithography and probably something better than that now ) and so far manage to keep Moore's law running true. I did say I worked in it first as a deign engineer and then in sales . I never worked in the factory and altho no doubt we had guys in the factory who had to consider this accuracy to keep control of the process , the main task of ensuring this accuracy was down to the companies manufacturing the production equipment, not us as a semiconductor company. As you probably know the whole very large and extremely heavy factory for processes this accurate had to be mounted on shock absorbers (traffic vibrations within a good distance threw things out) and the air had to be filtered almost to molecular level (to exaggerate a bit).One of the worst things about the industry was that a very very expensive factory only had a few years of life before the geometry moved down another order and a better one had to be built. The more chips you got to a wafer the cheaper you could sell 'em.

It would be interesting to know where they are at now as I retired from the industry 25 years ago. Incidentally the products we made to a precision exceeding any jewellery including watches by many orders often sold for a few pence (to industry, more to the man in the street ).

We did make pick and place machines for surface mount that could under ideal conditions place a million components an hour very very precisely. Heaven knows what they can run at now and to what precision.

I would think that there must be a few industries where they work to this precision (optical instruments comes to mind ) but usually ,and certainly in the case of semiconductor manufacture it bears little relationship to measuring turned diameters or mechanical accuracy. I'm happy on the days I get something to half a thou.

Regards Alan

PS added. If you want a good ,very large sound proof workshop Hyundai built a state of the art factory in Dunfermline which due to a market turn down never got used. Don't know if its still there though

Edited By alan frost on 17/11/2014 00:55:10

Very nice DSG on ebay at the moment which would do agri engineering and someone might get for £2K , less than a decent Myford (its a strange old world). Not suggesting for one moment its what you want and its not exactly even at £2K a bargain although it is at a guess well under a twentieth of its new price. I found a similar line a while back for a friend at I think about £400 (in Peterhead of all places-probably repaired fishing boats) but it does illustrate just what's available with patience.

Regards

Apologies to anyone interested in metrology who looked up mikrokronator. It has of course nothing to do with time unless travelling near the speed of light and the "whats its face" is Microkator,but the divisions are ).000005 inches. One can extrapolate of course (there's no Vernier ).. I used to work in an industry where even this would have been far too sloppy and eventually very short wavelengths of "light" had to be used.

I think I remember (talking of metrology) the tube ads. by Shackles and B--------ks that showed a piece of extremely fine tubing by their closest rivals with a piece of their finest tubing threaded down the bore. I would like to think it was a sloppy fit.

A similar story which I think is true concerns the attempts by the `Japanese to break into the lucrative American veneer knife business. The Japanese were repeatedly told the tolerance was zero but persisted and came up with a knife that was extremely fine but still did n't cut it. It would be nice to say that the Americans returned the Japanese knife with the edge split exactly down the middle but thats how untrue legends start.

In those days American and British know how was the tops.

Edited By alan frost on 16/11/2014 19:57:12

Well done.Its very easy to become obsessed with unneeded accuracy and then to become disappointed in one's lathe. After all you probably have a quite fine lathe (they were certainly well respected when manufactured ) but you would n't necessarily feel that if becoming too finicky with accuracy. My guess would be that it is more important to get a good fit on parts which probably depends more on other factors than fine tuning of the lathe. Even the judges at Model exhibitions can't tell if your parts are within small fractions of a mm in absolute size but they can evaluate fit.

I have a Mikrokronator (or whats its face) that has divisions of I think from memory 5 millionths (and no backlash unlike a micrometer) , a very high quality toolroom lathe, and a balance that weighs to a millionth of a gram (I think -have n't had it long) but only because I am interested in metrology. I do most of my work on an Emco V10P which was probably manufactured to Schlesinger limits ( heaven alone knows what it is now ). I'm not a model builder altho I admire them , and a lot of the time,in fact most of the time, anything within 10 thou. will do ,probably a great deal less.

Regards Alan

Edited By alan frost on 16/11/2014 17:46:05

Just in case you're tempted and taking note of Andrews post above ,first para, and to quote Mr. Schlesinger "Dismantling is always detrimental to the machine". Schlesinger may not have been God but he knew enough to have his standards adopted by practically all machine tool manufacturers in every country. He was of course also aware that certain manufacturers could make by taking great care machines very well inside his standards in which case the manufacturer usually proudly and rightly specified this.

My own "best" lathe had a run out of 40 millionths when new but I certainly won't be measuring what it is now or trying to achieve it. Regards.

PS. Of course should you achieve this it will only apply probably for the same temperature and almost certainly won't apply the moment you take even a light cut. You'll also need the right preload on the bearings .God knows what this is for a twenty year old lathe (younger than most of mine).

Edited By alan frost on 16/11/2014 13:43:53

Dave,if you're going to go for it (nothing wrong with that) but its time consuming and may be diappointing then after paying due care to the gap piece and after "levelling" the lathe (usually a tricky and time consuming job with an engineer's level). I usually have a smoke while the bubble settles. First you should run the lathe for the recommended hour to remove oil film clearances in bearings. You don't need a dial gauge with graduations finer than 0.01 mm "finer graduations lead to misapprehension regarding the accuracy of the gauge which is at best 0.0025mm " .

Then you are aiming for (lathes up to 8 inch centre height) 0,005mm true running at the spindle end and 0.015 mm at a distance from the chuck of 300mm). This is almost certainly the best your lathe was aimed to meet when new. Of course it could have been inside this of possibly outside as Harrison would have been aware that no factory employing skilled turners was likely to need this accuracy or check it..

For what its worth I know a skilled tool maker (retired) with two largish old Colchesters which like most peoples lathes are just plonked down (I suspect amateurs like me worry far more about levelling than professionals). He produces work of immaculate quality and fit and tells me, and I believe him, that he can work to a "tenth" provided the lathes are "loose" i.e,. have some backlash " can't work to that on a tight lathe ,Alan"

Anyway best of luck. Alan

The

I imagine he would say,yes,lathes were manufactured like everything else to a tolerance. Some lathes, by the nature of statistics, from the same manufacturer were more accurate than others. Many manufacturers charged a premium price for the accurate ones and gave them a separate title or part number. You obviously have one of the good ones. Schlesinger does not say that every lathe has to be bang on. Just that these are standards that a lathe should meet to enable reasonably accurate manufacturing practices. Dave's lathe is n't meeting schlesingers standards but its in the ball park.

As I also said yes ,Dave can improve the accuracy of his lathe but does he need to, how long will it stay this accurate, and how much trouble will he have to take to maintain this accuracy.? Lathes turning to the accuracy of your lathe are usually pampered by operating in temperature controlled rooms and are certainly not leant on while cutting. Quality watchmaking lathes ,not the most rugged admittedly, but very accurate, demonstrate very measurable flexing of the headstock bearings under very small forces, far less than normal cutting forces, and the inaccuracies induced into the most rugged of lathes by just leaning on a part of the lathe are well documented. Maybe you were leaning on yours at just the right place,maybe not. Either way is an error such as Dave describes important in the work he is doing.. IIs very easy to get carried away into working in thousandths of a mm but this is a very very small distance both in reality and in most applications.and usually does n't matter a hoot. As Phil ,I think said,, earlier, don't sweat about it, even the Swiss work to tolerances.

There was no put down I am aware of , Dave's lathe is inanimate-I was just trying to save him a lot of work that may or may not be successful or necessary.

Phil. above , sounds like an experienced lathe man  , and has given much the same advice.

Regards Alan

Edited By alan frost on 16/11/2014 01:12:01

Edited By alan frost on 16/11/2014 01:14:34

As I understand it Phil is quite right and you ideally need an air gap behind the outer cladding to let any moisture that does penetrate (and some will ,usually a little with 19mm claddingl -Bernouilli and other effects) dry out. Also the vapour barrier should be on the outside of the insulation as moisture will accumulate where the warm inside air is cooled so that it can hold less moisture.

The foil on Kingspan or similar will act as a vapour barrier by default although I admit I do also install a vapour barrier because I've got enough left over from foundations to cover a young airfield. Don't worry overmuch , the fact your thinking about it already puts you a jump ahead of most people you could pay to build.

Regards Alan

I don't know whoi is kidding who but for a lathe of Harrison M300 size you are already in the ball park of Schlesinger limits ,at least edition one.

Sure you can get it better,but who are you producing work for ? NASA? Are you in mass production where your parts have to fit those made miles away by another company? I would suspect ,in fact I would bet , that any skilled turner ( of whom I am not one) could produce more accurate work on the lathe as you have it than most of your respondents, with a toolroom lathe, and that with as much backlash as you like to specify..At one time this would have been done this with old fashioned callipers and maybe a micrometer as they got close. If you get it down to well within Schlesinger limits how much time are you prepared to invest in keeping it there?

Oh , and then don't lean on your lathe, M300 size or not.

Your lathe's pretty good. Regards Alan

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 19:40:44

One more thing. Don't worry about moving weight. If you're reasonably fit and agile moving anything up to a ton with an engine crane , a cheap heavy duty trailer (home made will do, mines a two ton and cost very little) and ratchet straps, soon becomes pretty easy although its wise to have someone else present to call medical help if necessary and also wise to move the first one or two with someone who knows what they are doing. Beware of complacency I got a bit careless with a beautiful Alexander engraver as it was only 5 cwt. and was a bit lucky to avoid serious damage to me, and more importantly the machine.

.I;m 71 and by no means as big as Hercules except for my stomach,which is the wrong shape to qualify.

Cheers Alan

Oh, forgot one point. Drinking with a scrappy is a very useful way of passing the time. A bit of reading will tell you what steels different scrap is probably made of ( a spark test and a magnet) will confirm and you'll have raw materials for next to nothing. Also it is not unknown alas for quite high quality machines, far from the end of life to end up at a scrap yard. I currently know of a CVA toolroom lathe (arguably the "best" lathe ever made ,its certainly a contender) which will probably be scrapped unless I rescue it for spares.

Its in better condition than mine and is only being scrapped because someone has seriously abused its gearbox. Both the current owner and myself are quite capable of fixing the box ,he more so than me, but its all time, the one thing we are all short of. Did I mention this hobby is responsible for the most and biggest time overdrafts?

Alan

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:16:42

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:20:40

Your comment about the engine crane is wise, if you get one a 2 ton model is best and no bigger than a 1 ton. My heaviest m/c ,the CVA is a ton and a half and with an engine crane ,a six foot pry bar, and a few rollers and wedges it is easily and precisely moved. A home made pair of short legs and counter weights (bricks or similar) makes a crane pretty manoeuvrable.Other things being equal machine mass equates to stability and quality. The best lathes,mills etc are very heavy for their size.

Agree with your comments about agri work but there are many jobs in plant engineering (rebushing, engine maintenance etc etc ) where it will pay you to have a lathe and mill at the upper end of home workshop sizes. Often for plant engineering you won't need phenomenal accuracy (good learning projects) but its still a lot more fun on a quality machine than a clunker.

Do a lot of reading, This site covers a lot of subjects and practical machinist site , home workshop,model engineers clearing house forums etc etc will over the course of 6 months cover much of what you need to know. Topics crop up time and time again and six months will cover most of them.

You sound a practical chap with sound principles and provided you respect the machines (they can be dangerous whether operating or just being moved) you'll have a lot of fun , meet some wonderful people and be quite expert in time that will fly by.

Keep having fun, but its hard not to in this hobby.

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 11:59:43

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 12:01:27

Sorry about that ,chaps,I did a couple of clicks it appears when I meant to do one.

I'll use this unexpected opportunity for a quick PS. My experience of Far east machines is limited .As you'll see I've preferred to go for manual older European machines but IMO only, I would go for Chinese manufactured modern machines if you're in a hurry. There is an old school that sleep with their Myfords but IMO they don't know what they are missing. Also in 10 years when this hobby has moved on you will find its far easier and cheaper to add DRO s or CNC to these machines . With a hobby farm you'll want to turn metal that a Myford won't accommodate ,let alone cut.

Alan

Well,pgk, have n't read all the other posts but it depends as much on budget as how much of a hurry you're in. I've spent about £6k over about 10 years and by not buying in a hurry have assembled the following which are all housed in a 23 feet by 11 feet garage.. I have admittedly probably spent about the same again on tooling and accessories.

Lathes CVA toolroom lathe, EmcoV10P,,small Zyto, and very small Draper.

Mills Haighton Major, Smallish Fritz Werner, Quick step mill, plus the one on the Emco

Shapers Elliott 14M ,Elliot 10M,

Small drill press and larger "radial type" drill (a la Axminster).Drill presses not upo to quality of other machines but adequate.

A Union and a similar K.O.Lee tool and cutter grinder.

Plus a table saw, small timber bandsaw and a metal band saw and several small machines grinders, fretsaw ,welders. etc.

Up until the purchase of the CVA and Elliott 14 inch shaper all machines were easily accessible and I could get my car in (at the time a Nissan Primera ) with just enough space to work on it.  but I must admit I am now in the process of building a 100 sq.ft extension to the rear of and adjoining the garage.

Regarding cost ,I live in Scotland where bargains are rarer. A friend in the Dover area has assembled an array of machines which makes me look like a pauper including a toolroom Smart and Brown plus another S and B, (Sabel,) a Cromwell ,A Top of the range Thiel mill ,and a Stanko Thiel copy,a large Holbrook and many other top class machines all in v.g.c. and very very comprehensively tooled. I suspect he has assembled this lot plus many other machines for less than my expenditure., altho he admits to some luck ,I suspect patience and knowing his stuff are the main factors.

Of course if you're in a hurry you'll probably end up with just a good well tooled Myford , a well tooled Tom Senior and not a lot left for other machines. or extra tooling. Either way,best of luck--just assembling the workshop is almost as much fun as using it IMO .(Don't want a good Elliott 10M do you ?) .

Have a lot of fun-You could n't have picked a better hobby..

Alan

Edited By alan frost on 15/11/2014 00:18:30

Thanks for inputs. What I liked about the Wimberley was the holder seemed far less likely to get in the way than with the t.t.h and it seemed so suitable for chamfering and , "round overs" as the Wimberley site calls them. Another tool change saved.

As I said it seems very makeable but its all time and I suspect I shall carry on with insert holders and a QCTP unless I can get a ready made one. Not being a modeller I don't do that much turning despite having several lathes .That's not the paradox it sounds as I just like lathes and other m/c tools for themselves , and restoring them, and as a sort of investment. May sound odd but for instance I have a pretty well tooled CVA toolroom lathe (£ (half an ML7)-very cheap and delivered free ,quite important at a ton and a half , which I hope to get into the £2000 class with a good restore and paint job . Its a runner but I might yet find problems when I really get into it but there ain't much that ain't fixable..

My trouble is a massive time overdraft and I hardly ever sell anything . Hence my current 100 sq ft shed build.The lathes were quite busy converting temporarily my S/H Honda power barrow into a mini "readimix bowser" for that job. I also know quite a few the same who would say "snap". Wimberleys etc promise to be time savers but they also require time to make. Suppose if I keep chasing my tail I might eventually vanish up an orifice but I'm enjoying it. To paraphrase a fellow traveller "You might be doing plant engineering mainly but its a lot more fun when you're doing it on a Holbrook, CVA, Smart and Brown or what have you."

Alan

My interest was piqued by a comment in a recent thread about the superiority of the Wimberly tool holder over even the diamond tangential tool holder. Looks to me as if the comment might be accurate. It looks very "makeable" but its all time and I have the usual time overdraft. Anyone know of a UK supplier. I have n't been able to locate one after a cursory ( meaning I swore a lot) search.

Yes....but. Call me unpatriotic but the slower softwood grows the better or so I'm told, hence my preference for Siberian and then Scandanavian, although Canadian would `I presume also be good, and especially US Alaskan. Scottish is of course always cheap up here but grows too quickly. Its the distance between the annual growth rings that gives the poor stuff away.

My preference received some confirmation when a former professional boat building (wooden) cousin visited this summer and remarked on the excellence of the wood I had, although at the end of the day it still ain't hard wood. Must admit my budget was n't going to ruh to a hardwood shed.

Ran out of characters before I could say best regards a fellow shedder and then noticed the few words of Erdish at the end due to earlier typos. but anyway regards .

Also thanks for your shed build site which as you can imagine had much of interest to me.

Now I have a few characters the negotiation with my timber man went something like

"150 quid"

" What for that lot.!!! You're bloody joking ,I'll give you £180" (I'd estimated £300 plus)

"160 then"

'180"

'!70" Which we settled on. This is a Goon Show negotiation. I might add my cladding supplier "threw in" 8 extra 10 foot boards " ...as you'll lose a few feet as the odd board will have shakes at the end" .Not many.

To any Scottish shed builders my timber man is in Carronshore and the cladding came from South Alloa. My next door neighbour who is the heid banana on a N.Sea oil rig and is not short of a bob or two asked me recently where to get timber for a fence he's building and was staggered by the prices also.Walter Marriott on the Dryrmen -Stirling road used to be as cheap and had dock sized timbers .Alas he is no longer with us.

Alan

Edited By alan frost on 07/11/2014 19:04:07

Edited By alan frost on 07/11/2014 19:04:52