Hello from Oxford - Problems with a SABEL lathe

Hi guys, new member here. Been lurking for quite a while though, finally registered in order to see some classifieds and now need to make a few posts in order to see them fully..

I also bought a Smart and Brown SABEL lathe not too long ago.. Kind of blindly.. Saw this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-and-Brown-Sabel-Lathe-/122838303363?nma=true&si=dyma1moYmadfT4LxrJFRlLcLvtM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 on eBay. The description seemed great, but I missed out on that. Sent a message to seller saying if the winning bidder wont follow up, let me know. After a while I get an answer saying theres no contact from the highest bidder and Im off to have a look at it. When I get there the lathe is partially disassembled and theres no way to see it running.. Anyway I bought it, kind of blame myself for not knowing what to look for, but hay ho you got to make mistakes in order to learn ay

The condition isnt great and I cant achieve a smooth surface finish no matter what I do.. One of the previous owners put grease literally everywhere.. apron, spindle, feedscrew, basically everywhere you can imagine. So one of the first jobs was to fully disassemble the lathe and thoroughly clean it. Now that Im looking back I should've painted it too.. Anyway, its a tad better now, but there's a lot of play everywhere. Also, the spindle/headstock shims were missing, so not knowing what they shoul be, I got some laminated ones from US for a Southbend. They're were quite cheap, but I paid more than half price for customs(18pounds). I also got the Southbend rebuild kit with new wicks, way wipers, manual, etc. So its looking a tad better now. Also installed a 1HP 3ph 4 pole motor along with vfd inverter.

So my main issue is the spindle. Following the instructions on shimming it up, you have to remove shims until there's 1thou play on the spindle end. If I tighten the caps to get to specifications, it gets so tight, that spindle barely rotates. And if I loosen it theres about 7 to 12 thou play.. So theres this spot where it has loads of play or if you tighten anymore it sort of starts seizing. So far I've figured two ways round it:

Either take it to engine builders / engineer shops, to have it bored out or honed or something?

Or I've seen a few Boxford headstocks that have tapered roller bearings and they seem like they'd fit fine dimension wise.

What would you guys do about it?

Oh and I forgot to mention that the spindle bearings are plain cast iron

Hello 'K'

Have you seen this: www.lathes.co.uk/sabel/

You should be able to get the spindle running OK by playing with the shims UNLESS the bore of the headstock is worn oval, in which case movement would be back and forth when up and down movement is adjusted correctly.

Neil

Sadly hidden wear is the hazard with second hand machines.

My first move would be to make some accurate measurements on the spindle and the bore to quantify the wear. It may be possible to get it bored out and bronze inserts fitted.

It's also worth checking wear on the bed.

If the machine requires a bed regrind as well it may be time to decide whether it's worth the cost and effort required.

As Neil said but I'd put some photos on the forum for the experts to comment on. With lathes beauty is skin deep, however the photos might reveal enough to decide 'what next'? (Looks aren't a good indicator of condition compared with what a few cuts on a running machine will tell you!)

In the worst case a worn machine needs so much expensive remedial work it's cheaper to buy a new one. On the other hand, fixing it might be relatively straightforward or an attractive project in it's own right. More data needed; photos, measurements, and descriptions of how it cuts, good and bad. Do you know anything of the machine's history? Not all lathes are carefully cosseted by loving owners - a commercial owner might have flogged it to death.

Hope it comes good for you. Whatever happens please share more details of your lathes faults; beginners buying second-hand need to know what to look for. It's not easy!

Dave

Hello K,

I have a spare spindle in decent shape if you want to try it as a second opinion test on the bearings. I suspect the application of grease to everything had done the machine no favours and been squeezed out to leave 'dry' bearings

Sent me a PM if you would like me to parcel it up to send you, I live near Thirsk in North Yorkshire so visiting with it is out of the question.

Regards

Brian

Hi, I bought a disassembled SABEL 3 years ago, I was lucky as I've had no problems with it. I live near Reading so could easily come over to see if I can be of assistance diagnosing the problem.

Stephen

YOu might try a light smear of non-drying bearing blue on the spindle and see how the contact between spindle and bearing is. You may then be able to scrape off the high spots to bring the bearing back to round again. Not an easy task though.

I think you need to focus on establishing why the spindle is either locked up or 7 to 12 thou of play.

Ball gauges might help with taking an accurate measurement of the bore in two planes to check if it's oval. I've got a set you can borrow.

I notice someone has added oilers onto the top of the bearing, so perhaps the capillary oilers weren't working.

It's worth persevering with, although my SABEL is 65 years old, I find it's great to use and an improvement on two previous Myfords.

Regards Stephen

I have a 9" South Bend lathe (the one the Sabel machines were patterned after) and have had my spindle out to rework a few issues. Your lathe looks VERY similar to my South Bend.

The spindle on my South Bend is "superfinished" steel and it runs directly in the cast iron headstock bearings. My lathe appears to have only been oiled, no one ever greased it as far as I can see. Superfinishing is still done today for some parts, it is a special honing process done after precision grinding the spindle, to further improve its' roundness straightness and finish. Some cams and diesel fuel injectors are still made this way (or were until recently) in North America. Anyway, I would not let anyone loose with a grinder on the superfinished spindle of your lathe unless it shows blatant damage, ie scores or galling. In my lathe I did find a number of high spots in the headstock bearing (as Hopper mentioned to look for) and also a few artifacts that looked like chunks of swarf that got jammed in the bearing and gradually wore down. Despite these problems in the headstock bearings the spindle was very good, and I only stoned a couple of "dings" down with a 2000 grit stone and oil. In the headstock bearing next to the chuck I very carefully removed the chunks I mentioned and cleaned up the high spots with a riffler file and followed it up with fine stoning. after a thorough cleanup and wash-out I rechecked it with blue and it looked and felt much better. I'd recommend a very close exam of your headstock bearings. If they're all chewed up, fine, you could get them bored and bronze bushed. If they're mostly OK looking and smooth, I'd look for artifacts that don't belong there, clean them up like I did, and then adjust shims. At the far end as you did I added a needle brg and ground thick washer thrust takeup system. These mods transformed the lathe, it now has far better finish, no odd headstock brg noises under heavy loads, and no more "ticka ticka ticka" noise from that thrust end when drilling. I did not change the headstock shim packs on my lathe at all. With the shims on your lathe I would sneak up on them. If the original pack of shims is gone, take out all the shims and fit the spindle. Note if there is any up/down back/front spindle play, and how much of each, with a DTI. (if there is more than about .003" of free play up/down front/back the brgs / spindle may be too far gone, and rebuild may be needed, but try shimming as below first.) Measure the stack gap with feeler gauges (make sure the gap is clean first.) Then put a shim stack in that is about .0005" less than the measured gap also less the max play you measured. The headstock bolts can then be tightened gradually checking every 1/8 turn for spindle free movement. The bolts should not need to compress the headstock bearing overhang more than .005" or so or you risk breaking off the bearing overhang in the casting and scrapping the headstock if you do, so go easy and sneak up on it. This is NOT a job to do if you are tired, angry, or in a rambunctious mood. Care is needed. Add or remove shims in .0005" increments until the spindle runs free but with virtually no up/down back/front play.

After you get to that state, use only ISO 32 grade hydraulic jack oil in the bearings and mechanisms of the lathe. That is what South Bend recommended originally and it has worked great for over 25 years in my lathe. Grease is not recommended.

If you can't get it to that state, you may need to have the headstock bushed by an experienced machine tool rebuilder. Again though unless the superfinished spindle bearings are scored, grooved up or otherwise trashed, don't let anyone grind them.

Hope the above is useful.

Now waiting for the usual 15 armchair experts on the forum to tell us it's all wrong. Well, all I can say is it worked for me and was based on South Bend's recommended practices. My lathe works great.

Hello again K,

In addition to my offer of using my spare spindle to check your headstock and eliminate an oval spindle, I also have a bare headstock should you need it

I have not inspected the bearings having had no need to do so up till now, but if your tests prove bearing damage in yours it might be a big time and cost saving to swap the whole thing and rebuilt again around your running gear. I will in the meantime check it through with my spindle [I am pretty sure it must have come from it in the first place knowing something of it's history]

If you feel you need it please PM me and we can haggle to a mutually agreeable price

Regards

Brian

Alright guys, I've re-read the posts. I really do appreciate the help received!

As far as spare spindles and headstocks go, Ill wait a little, until the condition is known for sure. But its great knowing I have extra options!

I saw Stephen offered me to borrow some ball gauges, but wont the bearing grease show more or less the same result when it finally arrives?

As for cleanliness, I cleaned everything really well in my previous disassembly with the help of wd40/brake cleaner and superfine steel wooI think 0000 grade, cloths and loads of elbow grease. It was sanitary clean, the cleaning solution coming out was as clear as going in. So theres no need to worry about the gaps not being clean, etc.

I've got some time to spare right now, so Ill head to garage and disassemble the headstock to show you the condition of it in detail and it will be ready for bearing blue whenever it arrives

Ill try to take some measurements too, hopefully they will be of use!

Andy

Dont mean to spam, but I cant edit my posts on mobile. Heres some pictures

https://ibb.co/album/hxLMiv

There is scoring but theres nothing that really cathes the nail, obviously I can feel theyre there, but nothing really stops me getting from one side to the other.

On some images it appears like theres dirt in the headstock bearings, its actually only a reflection

Also the spindle must be hardened because file wont touch it. This condition was what originally got me thinking of taking it to machinists.. I was to take measurements, but its all tapered, so im not sure what to measure

Also, theres 2 factory oil fill spots and i sort of use them as 'dipsticks' and the bigger bearing fills/holds less oil than the small end. Oil escapes through the front of the headstock just underneath the spindle, I took a picture of it but its hard to see as the oil is clean, only shows up as a shinier spot. So it seems like the only oiling the front is receiving is what you fill up from the top of the bearing as the oil level on the big end sits below the wick level. Small end is about the same height as the wick.

Let me know if I should take some specific measurements that would help?

The marking blue will show where the spindle and bearing are rubbing, whereas ball gauges will allow a measurement to be taken. Have you looked on the smart and brown yahoo group, I think there are some posts there showing bearings that look worse than yours but still work ok. You mentioned installing roller needle bearings - was this on the cross slide, or the headstock spindle? Regards Stephen

Andy,

I confirm these spindle are hardened and yours looks to be in good shape. The bearings also look to be in good shape but of course it is impossible to tell if they have worn oval or not. I think we will have to wait and see what your blue indicator grease has to tell you about the fit of one in the other.

Reading back i was surprised that there is no 'grey' zone in the bearing clamping story with no progessive effects from tightening the clamping screws; as you describe it the spindle is either tight or slack by an unacceptable amount.

The tests with the marking grease will be revealing. Don't overdo the application, a light smear on the spindle is all that is needed to look for contact spots in areas of the bearing rather that even marking which is what you would hope to see.

Just a thought but are the bearing clamping screws a good fit in the threads. Smart and Brown would probably have anglicised the pitch and it could be that US pitch Southbend screws have been fitted at some time in the past, making for less than smooth action..

Regards

Brian

Two thoughts, 1 are you holding down the wicks when fitting the spindle? Otherwise some wick might get trapped between spindle and bearing. 2. The spindle nose looks different to mine, I'm sure mine doesn't have the bronze bit , so is the chuck fitted securely to the spindle and on the register?