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You are going to the Model Engineer Exhibition aren't you?

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Nicholas Farr11/12/2010 12:22:18
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Hi Andrew, I don't know about Steve, but I myself think they are a bit pricey. Although I have bought some less popular items from them in the past at a reasonable cost, I ddn't see anthing this time to make me willing to part with my cash. This is only my opinion of value of course.
 
Regards Nick.
Andrew Johnston11/12/2010 13:57:25
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Hi Nick,
 
Funny you should mention that; exactly my experience! The last time I went to Sandown, several years ago, I bought a travelling steady for my lathe from H&WM, for what seemed a reasonable price (£60). I also bought a large horizontal mill from them for £150 some years ago. I guess they'd cleared a college and just wanted to get rid of it, as it's rather bigger than most model engineers would want.
 
On the other hand I looked at their stand at the Warwick ME exhibition and thought that a lot of the INT40 taper tooling was way over what I was prepared to pay for it. They didn't have the involute gear cutter I wanted either .

Ultimately the machinery suppliers are in business to make a profit and will price according to what they think the market will stand. Conversely the purchaser has to make a decision on what he is prepared to pay for a given item, based on what it is worth to him. If the two do not coincide, then no sale. If there are a lot of 'no sales' then the supplier might think that he is overpricing.

To be fair, H&WM are by no means the only stand to have secondhand tooling at way over what I'm prepared to pay.
 
Regards,

Andrew
Nicholas Farr11/12/2010 17:54:14
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Hi Andrew, yes I have to agree at Warwickshire and Alexandrea Place, in the last few years I've seen at least two other secondhand tool stands with some interesting items for sale. When finding out the price, I though to myself thats why they still have them and they had better keep them a bit longer. It was not because it was first thing ether, in fact they still had them at closing time. Don't you just hate it when they have all the cutters except the particular one that you need.
 
Regards Nick.
Steve Garnett11/12/2010 18:55:48
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Andrew, Nicholas - you are not alone in your views about the perceived value of things. There's nothing actually wrong with what H&WH are doing - it's just that I can't convince myself that they have the balance correct when it comes to what the market can stand - or have they? I mean, they remain in business and still buy advertising space in MEW/ME, so presumably somebody's buying stuff from them? I would have to be pretty desperate to pay their prices though, and so far I haven't been; everything I've wanted I've managed to get cheaper (a lot cheaper in some cases) from elsewhere. And clearly they aren't alone in doing this either. But shortly after I arrived at H&WH's stand, I heard somebody muttering about 'second-hand parts at new prices', and I could hardly not agree with him...
 
But as far as the exhibition is concerned, I don't really think that they've entered into the spirit of the event, and may be that is what's irritating me; certainly something is. I mean, next to them is Warco, and they've knocked about 20% off the price of all of their bits and pieces as a show special. Now maybe, if you'd made an offer to H&WH for something, you could have negotiated a similar deal - but since I reckon that the prices were at least 20% too high in the first place, what would you have achieved?
 
The other thing about this (which is why I was a bit circumspect about commenting in the first place) is that we can't really say too much I fear - because they are buying advertising space in the mags and a stand at the exhibition, and might well object to these perfectly reasonable comments...

Edited By Steve Garnett on 11/12/2010 18:57:31

Andrew Johnston11/12/2010 19:10:50
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Hi Nick,
 
Sadly nobody at Warwick came close to having the involute cutter I wanted. The 6DP was not necessarily a problem, but the 20° PA seemed to be. One company even said 'nah, we didn't bother bringing any involute cutters, give us a call when the show's over'. I didn't bother, as despite advertising all DP and module sizes, they've never had what I wanted in the past. In the end I bought a import cutter from Victor Machinery in New York.
 
I did have a slight hiccup with H&WM when I bought my horizontal mill. It was supposed to come with 1" and 1-1/4" arbors, but actually came with 1" and 32mm arbors. When I queried this the guy on the 'phone told me I was an idiot, after all 32mm is well within the tolerance for a 1-1/4" arbor, so he said. He did 'phone back later and apologise, having been told in no uncertain terms by one of the proprietors that 31.75mm and 32mm are not the same when it comes to milling arbors! I bought a 1-1/4" arbor from them for the cost of postage.
 
On a slightly different tack, but still on costs, I had an acquaintance who sold odd bits and pieces for Myford lathes that he didn't need on Ebay. Some of them made more than the new price from Myfords, ; people are strange!
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
Nicholas Farr11/12/2010 19:19:30
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Hi Steve, H&WM are undoubtably selling as they also advertise in EIM, but they haven't erned any of my moeny for Christmas this year. I'm not criticising them personally, but when you can get the same elswhere at a much lower price, nuff said.
 
Regards Nick.
Steve Garnett11/12/2010 19:23:34
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One thing about the exhibits that was a bit disappointing (and this is not a reflection on the show at all, which was excellently organised, as usual) is that there was virtually nothing in the way of tooling entered. There was a centring gauge based on the design published in MEW 118 which I believe got a 'highly commended', but essentially that was about it for anything that qualified as 'interesting'. As David mentioned, some of the other exhibits were truly excellent - and not just the engines either. But as usual, the most I got out of the show was from the SMEE; their demonstrations never fail to be fascinating, and this time was no exception. Had a brief word with John Stephenson, who was doing a CAM demonstration for them, and that was pretty slick too. Good show though - worth going.
Nicholas Farr11/12/2010 19:26:13
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Hi Andrew, yes people are strange, I've been to commercial tool auctions near Norwich and have seen them bid higher prices on what is clearly been B&Q returns than what you can get new from the store.
 
Regards Nick.
Nicholas Farr11/12/2010 19:34:25
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Hi again, yes the show was very good and well organised. Cherry Hill's entrant was superb as usual, even had the chance to photo it with the display cased removed. I have had a couple of things in the tooling section in past years, but the last two years have been unable to complete anything to show let alone worth showing.
 
Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 11/12/2010 19:36:19

Chris Trice11/12/2010 23:29:04
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Posted by Steve Garnett on 11/12/2010 18:55:48:
Andrew, Nicholas - you are not alone in your views about the perceived value of things. There's nothing actually wrong with what H&WH are doing - it's just that I can't convince myself that they have the balance correct when it comes to what the market can stand - or have they? 
 
"SNIP"
 
 - because they are buying advertising space in the mags and a stand at the exhibition, and might well object to these perfectly reasonable comments...
 
As long as the comments are polite and genuine, I don't think they'd have any cause for complaint. They may even appreciate the feedback if they're unaware of people's perceptions and can't understand why they're not selling more. Ultimately though, like all things, market forces will tell them if they're pitching prices correctly of if they need to be more competitive. I know Steve and Chris of H&WM quite well and while it's obviously in their interest to get as much as they can for their stuff, if you can show them why you think their prices are too high, they will listen and negotiate. If one genuinely can get something comparable at a much better price, walk away and do it. That's how the free market works and dealers have to factor it in.
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