Member postings for Nigel Graham 2

Success!!!

Yes: the prompt to up-date did appear this evening.

It threatened to take all night again.

Task manager revealed nothing likely to be a problem though I turned off MS 'Edge' which I do not use, so that was 8Mbs' worth out of the way.

Then I spotted a plaintive little toolbar symbol gently flickering at me, and that revealed a system-change request that had not displayed fully. I chose "Yes" and we were away, with Alibre all replaced with new before the Ukrainian Freedom Orchestra had finished Beethoven's Ninth Symphony - complete with its Ode To Joy sung in their own language.

So having carefully pencil-sketched with measurements the existing cylinder block, I could now draw a new version. I made a few odd slips and met a few difficulties, like trying to set the centres for the cover-stud holes, and that Symmetrical Constraint sometimes acting in ways I didn't want. Oh, and having to re-draw the ports completely when I realised I'd aligned both sets along instead of across the block!

I am keen to make this area resemble the original as closely as I reasonably can, as the cylinders are so prominent. With the inverted-vertical engine between the seats, on full-size the cylinders were about level with the driver's chest.

So with this established so far I can go on to work out the dispositions of the passages and the steam-chest studs, (I found the clue to solving their conflict, in one of Luker's locomotive drawings), the starting-valve, etc. I'm tempted to use WAD to help me work out the details. (W=wood!)

So yer tiz:

Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 22/09/2023 22:46:54

I did not examine Task Manager to see what the computer was trying to do, but other than Alibre the only programme open was the browser, including this Forum!

I don't think Alibre did re-install itself if the number following the title is a guide. the Desk-top symbol is labelled,

" Alibre Atom 3D 26.0.0.26040".

If the first two digits are the version, it hasn't. It was trying to load V27.

Anyway it appears to have survived its antics.

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So I set out to draw my wagon's new cylinder block. I am not sure how much of Alibre Atom I've forgotten as I'd not touched the programme for at least six weeks; but I remembered I cannot grasp how to Assemble anything from two or more Parts if they are not already facing the right way and stay that way.

This 3D model is a single Part though.

All went well until one of the cylinder-cover stud holes fell off the edge.

Measuring the actual part-made block on the table next to the computer, I found I'd miscalculated the dimensions. So had to trim one end and stick some "metal" on the other, necessitating re-drawing the ports at that end.

It looks a bit of a mess, as the added bit, as an outwards extrusion, is not a true extension but turned out as a "glued-on" slice and slightly out-of-line. I'd also tried too hard with that mirror tool so created problems without saving time. The "long" way round where the experts would go the quick way, is the simpler and better one when you are not an expert.

I'll have to redraw this Alibre model from fresh if I want to produce working drawings from it. For I need make the block afresh as I'd "designed" all sort of strange traps in it, leading years later to it being too complicated with extra and too-narrow sealing-surfaces, stud-holes entering the passages, and the like.

Meanwhile, how large a block of cast-iron stock bar can College Supplies, supply?

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As for Alibre, it did not feel up to re-installing itself!

Laboriously drew my engine's cylinders in Alibre, which appears to have survived its "up-dating" antics last night. Then found a measuring mistake meant I had to try and trim one end and stick some "metal" on the other, necessitating re-drawing the ports at that end.

It finished a bit of a mess. I'll have to redraw it if I want to produce working drawings from it.

I had built in some peculiar errors in the cylinder block, producing various unforeseen conflicts such as studs meeting passages, over-complicated fabrication and inadequate sealing surface areas, many years after starting it, so will have to start again from scratch.

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Otherwise I spent an hour or so working on the "plug-in" bunk I've made for my car, spartan but adequate for a couple of nights at my caving-club or on a rally field. Kipping in there when the steam-wagon's loaded is rather a challenge!

It may but if the 1/4 of the height not knurled is that at the bottom of the head, pressing it in might broach the hole to the o.d. of the knurling, so rather defeating the object.

I'd be inclined to tap the hole through the knob and screw the Allen screw into it with hard-setting thread-lock on both thread and knurled bit, ensuring none ends up on the working part of the shank.

My steam-wagon's ancestors were built in Bourton, near Gillingham. The North Dorset one.

I asked a friend from Sherborne, not ever so far from there, if Gillingham or Jillingham.

"Gillingham - hard G", he replied. "Soft G for the Kent one. Easy to remember - we're 'ard in Dorset!"

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As for the machine components, I have heard them pronounced either way and we still understand each other. The Gib Adjusters though are designed so that on old, rather worn machines they lead to "other" uses of the English language!

Once listening to two friends Up North arguing over whether the town COLNE is "Cone" or "Coln", eventually I said, "If you two Lancashire Lasses can't agree on how to pronounce your own town names, what hope for a Southerner like me of getting them right?"

Tony -

I am simply being extra careful, whether the leadscrew slack matters or not with a DRO. Also as I don't always use the digital display, I keep the habit of one-way working.

Points 1 and 2 are the primary ones for me too.

I've not tried PCDs and lines at angles but only because I've not so far needed to, or have tackled those tasks in other ways.

Point 6 though is an interesting one. I may be over-cautious but do still account for the backlash, especially on the long travel when used over a long distance, as there is a curious "miss" point of nearly a full turn in the screw's action on my mill. It may be by an accumulating backlash of some sort. The machine has no power feeds to be affected by it, and it does not seem to affect the feed anyway.

To set the edge from the fence I use as my main alignment tool I usually clip a small flat to the work-side of the fence, projecting above it, and bring the wobbler to the rear of that, so I wind the screw in the same distance to reach the machining points. I do so whether using the dials or DRO, and while it not be strictly (or theoretically) necessary for the latter, regard it as good practice to keep the habit and it takes no significant extra time... as if that matters anyway.

One point about my DRO is that switching between mm and inch seems to need turning the device off and on again, but I may have missed something simple in the instructions.

The biggest advantage to me of the DRO is actual measurement so I don't need keep tabs on handwheel turns, and assurance that Part A will screw to Part B without having enlarge bolt-holes or to file them oval!

BUT.... it still needs me to make sure I read the numbers correctly! It's not a mistake-corrector or metal putter-onner!

It also retains the last measurements after switching off, but I do return everything as a precaution to (0, 0, 0) if I stop for the night in mid-machining.

Peter -

I'd expect Alibre to say not it's normal, and I had realised it isn't.

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Jason, Baz -

Given that it decided it needed first install the language already in the computer too, I'd have thought 15-20 minutes about right. A slow connection might stretch it a bit but not to over 3 hours!

It may be something in my computer that held things up, not a broadband speed problem and certainly not with Alibre's software.

Only time will tell, by trying to use it again. Either it will try to repeat the re-installing or it will not, but if it does I hope it succeeds this time! What matters to me is it still operates

Up-dates on software like CAD are usually to add very arcane features for very advanced users. That doesn't worry me as, like 'Excel' and 'Word', I do not expect using CAD at more than a very simple level. I still want it to work though!

I have just turned it off.

It had been running for almost exactly three hours and was still allegedly "installing" Atom V27!

It had such a hold on the computer I had to use Task Manager to close it.

As an experiment I then tried opening Alibre and a drawing, and it did so without question. I twiddled the model round a couple of times; then closed the lot easily with the normal 'X' sign.

Strange.

It'll be time for the next issue!

It has been about 6 weeks since I last opened Alibre Atom so I was not surprised this evening to find it started to install big up-dates, First was Visual C++ I thought already part of MS-WIN 11, and is listed in the PC's programme index.

So instead of opening a drawing, or much else, I let the system have its way.

I started at about 8.15pm. It took all of the rest of The Moral Maze and now all of The Media Show, and is still "Installing update Alibre Atom 3D V27", so it tells me.

Over an hour and a half for first, C++ and now the additions to the CAD programme itself, and not finished? I want to go to bed! There will come a point when I have to just stop it and turn the computer off for the night.

This slowness just to modify an installed programme can't be right, surely?

What might be wrong?

Of course you can produce first-rate results without a DRO.

The electronics simply makes the task easier and perhaps less prone to error (anyone can miscount hand-wheel turns or make a reading error; but some marking-out first will go a long way to minimising that risk.)

I have fitted a Machine-DRO set to my mill, all 3 axes, and do use it, though not every time. Depending to some extent on the work I still use the dials occasionally to maintain my ability with them, or because it's just as quick.

Fitting it on a machine not built to take one, a Myford VMC, was a challenge involving much rather complicated metalwork and the loss of the table-stops. Just because I've a box of numbers does not mean I need sacrifice existing aids unless enforced mechanically as here. I prefer augmenting or complementing such aids, not mere replacing.

I have not yet used its more advanced features such as pitch-circles and radius-generating, but the instruction-manual is very clear, and I am very pleased with having put my works retirement collection towards it!

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I have not fitted a DRO to either of my lathes, where I think them marginally less valuable and right in the way of all the swarf and coolant; and anyway the Myford ML7 is crowded already. (Myford sells a new version of the top-slide, I think, with a rectangular outline to facilitate fitting a DRO.)

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As for "serious accuracy", although a DRO will read to the tiddliest bit of thous or mm, the accuracy (or is it precisyon?) and quality of the work it is still very much up to the operator! The display is an aid to your accuracy, not an accuracy-maker itself.

In order:

New management-ese for what a committee of consultants do.

A social-media site dedicated to making manometers.

Periscope.

What the committee in No.1 emits. NB: I said nowt about veracity and value.

I keep my mill in the workshop not garden shelter.

As Ian has already stated!

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And from what's come to a Forum near you now:

Quick Change Gear Box: An actor's costume-locker.

Struggling to.... hard enough. I suggest reading the health-advice posters more carefully.

There is another aspect to milling in the lathe I don't think has been mentioned, and that is using the milling attachment on the cross-slide. I think the original is called a "Potts milling spindle".

Combined with suitable lathe-spindle dividing, this allows readily forming radial features like holes, flats and slots in the periphery and face of a turned component, without removing the work from the lathe.

Ideally the milling spindle would be built to be set easily with the cutter truly axial to the lathe spindle as the "0" position, e.g.using part of the bed as a dead-stop for setting, and to be rotated at any angle from horizontal to vertical.

If vertical on the axial plane it will also allow key-way and spline cutting, and thread-milling.

A further refinement is a simple worm and wheel attachment to the spindle, for milling arcs.

Thinking about the geometry, with the clapper-box operative, the return stroke should lift the cutting edge off the metal. The heel of the tool is what slides on the workpiece; and despite the work advancing from the side.

When locked for key-way cutting, the returning of the tool is akin to what happens when we back off a tap or die. The edge does rub but with relatively little load on it because it has already cut the metal away (neglecting any springing).

Even so, the clapper-box should still be unlocked for external surfacing, partly due to the larger amount of metal being removed, but also to avoid jamming against the feed's flanking movement.

(Unlike using a saw or file without relieving the return. That does put a heavy, unfair load on the teeth unless of some bi-directional form not normally found on metalworking tools.)

The Hindley wagon was not built like a traction-engine or overtype steam-wagon, with a flat-sided, arched firebox forming part of the chassis.

Instead it is more like the wagons with vertical boilers, in which the boiler has brackets that sit on a more conventional lorry chassis: long rails supporting the machinery between them.

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It's not clear if the cylindrical surfaces were lagged on the originals but the flat, circular top of the firebox appears to have been left exposed. The archive photographs showing the wagons under construction or test may have been taken before completion, and the boilers on wagons photographed in service are largely hidden.

However there is just about enough visible collectively to suggest the boiler was clad except for the top plate, and for the whole height of the firebox. If it used wood, the smooth appearance says it was still covered with sheet metal.

That may have been all done before the boiler was craned into the chassis; and it would make sense for me to do that. I have made a special lifting-attachment for use with my travelling-crane, for this boiler.

While lagging may bring the appearance nearer to scale, its primary purpose is still insulation.

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I need remember not to cover the maker's marks (serial number, CE-mark etc). They are in tiny letters round the foundation-ring just above the front of the ash-pan, about two inches behind the axle, so the Hon. Boiler Admirer will have to lie on the ground, magnifying-glass in hand, if he wants to verify them!

Milling in the lathe is feasible but very limited.

Really, you need a vertical slide with suitable vice or clamps though it's possible to do some limited milling operations without. The primary requirement is the saddle having Tee-slots, otherwise you've no way to mount a vertical-slide or directly-clamped work.

The smaller the lathe the more limited it is too, not least because the machine's rigidity diminishes with the size reduction. It is fine for turning within its capacity but not really built to be used as a milling-machine, so such work is something of a compromise. Nevertheless a lot of fine models have been made using the lathe as a mill, with the part held on a vertical slide and the cutter in the chuck or (better) a collet. You need take it very steadily with gentle cuts.

One operation to which a lathe with slotted cross-slide or boring-table is very amenable, is boring between centres, and to a lesser extent, the associated facing. For this the work is clamped to the slide, with suitable packing to raise it to the correct height. Used with the fine feed, this is the best way to bore cylinders accurately. (The industrial horizontal borer is much the same thing beefed up, in principle.)

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For a guide, I don't think you will find a book dedicated to "Milling InThe Lathe". However, a lot of information on this has been published over the years in model-engineering text-books. You may need look back a bit to older books, e.g. published in the 1950s-70, as using the lathe as a mill has been supplanted to a large extent by ... the milling-machine! Also buy an introductory book on milling, for information on cutter types, speeds and feeds, general principles, etc.

For accessories, since you name the Warco lathe, try examining their catalogue.

If you own a shaper or planing-machine it would seem worth finding a book on using them as they are more subtle than appears..

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Garth -

Could you be a bit clearer what you mean? Shapers relieve the tool for the return stroke anyway. The hinged clapper-box (hence its name!) lets the tool slide back along the work surface, and depending on the tool shape this will often raise the cutting edge itself slightly clear of the work. They don't use a spring.

Certain operations, particularly keyway / spline cutting normally back towards the machine, need the clapper locking. This does let the tool edge rub but it seems to work, and shaper tools are easy to resharpen! I think cutting down a vertical side does as well.

With a tool-steel tool this is relatively easily done by drilling and tapping the softer upper end of the bar to take a screw that abuts on the vertical slide, between its bearing surfaces. Alternatively use a mild-steel tool-holder with such a screw, that accepts a small, inserted HSS bit, and such a tool can be made to tilt the bit sideways for vertical side shaping. (HSS not carbide, which is brittle and might not give a decent finish anyway.)

Some planing-machines had a tool-box rotated by suitable gear 180º at the end of each cut, but probably only on the larger machines, and simply to halve the production time by cutting in both directions.

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Bernard -

Tee-slotting may well be an operation where a spring would make life simpler by lifting the tool completely clear of the top of the work. The tool-holder is hinged anyway of course. A bungee cord might be effective, given the large tool swing needed!

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Note that the cutting edge needs be below or only a little forwards of but not behind, the clapper fulcrum.

I normally file a low-angle chamfer on the approach edge of the work to ease the shock a bit. On me as well as my even older machine, and the work; as my shaper is a Drummond manual one! My main tool on it is a carbon-steel spring-tool, as was often recommended.

Some here have asked about cutting lubricant on a shaper. I use tapping-paste, or soluble cutting oil used nearly neat so it stays on the metal.

Thank you for all these replies!

I think it's ordinary wood then. Either crinolines holding soft wadding between them, or strips. The one area I need be careful with is the joint with the smoke-box, for air-tightness, but suitable soft packing such as Kaowool should deal with that.

The glueing I'd mentioned was really for helping hold a built-ring together for turning. Its main fixings would be brass wood-screws.

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Martin - flanged aluminium. Interesting idea. I don't know how things would behave if any water found its way into the cladding though. I have a tinsmith's jenny for making such items but have not managed to make it work - clearly there is a knack to them I don't know! To flange the top and floor plates for the ash-pan, in 1mm mild-steel sheet, I had to resort to hammer and a former carved from a scrap car brake-disc, leading to flanges that work but are very messy. Fortunately they are hidden inside the pan.

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I don't know what the original vehicles used. They look as if not insulated at all, so outer cladding sheets on the model will represent that to some extent, and help hide a somewhat gawky problem with the proportions of the boiler itself. I think it's a bit smaller than it should be, leading to problems mounting it in the chassis.

The photographs show the boiler should be bolted together, producing a prominent ring of studs and nuts round the top of the outer firebox. The model version is silver-soldered copper so lacks that, but I am planning to make a top cover for it anyway.

Edited By Nigel Graham 2 on 18/09/2023 21:54:23

For boiler cladding crinolines.

(Yes I know a proper drawing would help but I don't have one! The simplified drawing and photo below might explain things.)

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My wagon's boiler is an unusual shape, a T-piece with 7" o.d. X 16" high cylindrical outer firebox, and a short 6" o.d. horizontal barrel at half-height. The latter's barrel diameter is level with the chassis rail tops.

The barrel enters for about 1/2" into the 8" o.d. smoke-box, on which a ring of "rivets" (M3 round-head cap-screws) holding the annular channel adaptor-plate narrows the cladding overlap to about 1/4" .

It also needs a cradle fitted to an inverted-arch chassis cross-member, below it, for support if the smoke-box is removed. (as it would be if I needed lift the boiler from the vehicle.)

So cladding is somewhat awkward!

My thoughts:

A wooden half-circumference cradle on the cross-member.

Two rings of 8" od X 6" i.d. on the barrel; the front one helping support the cladding sheet's overlap on the smokebox.

Two pairs of rings 8" o.d. X 7" i.d., each pair above and below the barrel, on the fire-box.

So 6 rings and one half-ring.

Question:

At a working temperature of about 200ºC (90psi), how would these cope:

- ordinary soft-wood, the rings made in 2 or 3 layers of sectors overlapped, glued and screwed together on their faces, and so the grain on each part is not far off concentric, for strength.

- exterior-grade plywood, possibly 2 or 4 layers depending on layer thickness,

- MDF

- ??

All finished turned sub-assemblies then soaked in preservative.

It happens fairly often on different fora so must be some quirk of how the site works.