Member postings for RJW

Norman, I don't think the acid content in a cocktail stick would do much damage to you, but if pushed into a brass pivot hole, there could be some sap residue left behind which could damage the brass and hence steel, especially if oak, they're not designed or manufactured for pegging out clock plates under pressure anyway, and impurities would most likely be depositied!
The advice came to me originally from a professional member of the British Horological Institute, sadly he's no longer with us for me to ask his source, but it seemed good sense to me then and still does!

Beware too of pegwood being sold on eBay, I bought some and it looked (and smelled like) pine rod created by shoving a stick of wood down a counterbore, similar to how carpenters make dowels, it all went in the bin, lesson learned - stuff on eBay ain't always what it seems!

Niko makes a very good point about marking barrels, and something I do regardless!
On many clocks they can't be mistaken because the barrel gear diameter is often very different between Time and Strike, but on French drums, they are mostly interchangeable and have the same size springs in each barrel!
I usually scratch an 'S' on the strike drum and 'G' or a 'T' for the going or Time train, but do it on the cap and barrel too on these as they are mostly interchangeable!
I use those letters because sometimes you will come across a clock which has had Johnny around the barrels (French lettering), the strike will have an 'S' usually (Sonnerie) but the going train may well have what looks like a 'W' but which is 'M' for Motion or Marche, so put your own marks on!

With a weakish time train spring, the strike spring can often be swapped over to good effect, as curiously they never seem so coil bound as the time spring, possibly because the strike spring winds down faster due to a faster moving train, and I've found that even a very weak time spring will drive the strike train on these with no noticeable difference as the train speed is limited by the fly anyway!

Generally in most clocks, the strike train will have the heavier spring as it has to drive more wheels, cope with the fly acting as a brake, lift the hammer from the pin wheel Plus the weight of the hammer, and lift the locking lever off the stop pin to release the countwheel - on a rack strike movement, instead of the countwheel it has to drive the flirt which lifts the rack!

For anyone recoiling in horror about yanking out a spring on Jason's clock and to help put things into perspective, they are almost invariably approx 80mm diameter on the plates, and both maninspring barrels approx 32mm diameter externally, they're pussys compared to most springers!

John

I appreciate the concern some have about spring removal, and in some circumstance it's advice to be well heeded, but spring removal on these is a piece of cake, no winder needed and frankly, overkill for a 'one off' job, just gently pull the spring out from the centre and when it releases (you'll feel it want to go), keep the spring cupped in your hand (use a glove or thick rag if need be) and let it gently unwind, keep a good grip on the barrel though otherwise it will do a zebedee across the room from the recoil, there's not really that much power in them unless you try flicking the click of the rathet pawl when fully wound!!
I generally hold the spring and let the barrel rotate!

As a general rule on this type, they're around 18mm deep and 0.20mm thick, so quite weak compared to a British Enfield or Kienzle / Keininger movement, but even those I pull out by hand, the only springs on which I will use a winder is a Fusee, those buggers really Are scary!
For winding them in, I use my watchmakers lathe with the arbour in the chuck on small springs, wind it up slip a cut wire hoop over it, slot the barrel over it, and push the spring in, it can be done in any lathe - even fusees, but I'll use my winder for those and always use the click And stand well to one side of them with Nothing on the bench!

If the spring remains fairly tightly coiled, then it's probably dead, but to be perfectly honest, I've rarely had to change springs, although several times had to cut off the end and form a new hole for the hook, because the spring eye cracks due to over ambitious winding!
If the inner eye is cracked, you can turn the spring inside out to repair it, but they're a pain to do when that end goes, but still 'do-able'!

John

Edited By RJW on 27/08/2013 21:19:55

Those French drum movements are about as good as it gets for any clock movement, the quality of manufacture and finish is consistently superb across the entire range whether countwheel (yours), rack striking or timepiece, and whether unsigned or bearing trademarks of Japy, Marc or Marti!

Can't argue about the 'Vallet' suspension, never bothered to research them, I only fix them when they've been inconsiderately abused (butchered), but the adjustment device is by Brocot, which is what I generally refer to them as, you'll probably find the name stamped into the gear wheel!

Hmmmmmm, Please forget an unstripped cleaning Jason, it's a shit way of cleaning a clock to be frank and what cheapskate dealers do to get one up and running sufficient to get rid of what was a non runner, even leaving the barrels out of the solution!

No matter how well you clean it, even in an ultrasonic, you will also Not get crap out of the mainspring leaves or the barrels if you do dunk them, or get the congealed oil out of the holes, and as sure as God made little apples, you'll end up with a slurry gathered in whichever part of the barrel is lowest when sitting in the tank!
You may get some of the crap running out of the lever hole in the barrel cap (slot for prying the cap off), but you will not be able to properly clean the springs or oil the mainspring!

The oil previously used in that clock will have been fish oil based (and why some stink enough to make you want to puke), ultrasonics don't get it out or off, it doesn't work on watches either, and you will always need to remove dried oil residue with a stick of pegwood before cleaning again!

Use it as a learning experience, they're not that bad to do unless you're into serious re-bushing where the top pivots are getting on for pocket watch sizes when

it all gets a bit tedious, but if you just strip it to clean and inspect and forget repairs at this stage, they're quite nice to work on!
Use a digital camera and take loads of photo's at each stage of disassembly and you wont go wrong!
Just beware on reassembly though when placing pivots, if you grip the plates too tightly together to keep those little buggers in place you've managed to capture, and you try sliding one across the plates that's slightly off it's hole, you'll probably do one of two things, (a) put a nasty scratch on the plate (not pro' and (b) snap a pivot off - mainly because the sods that tend to be out of place are the top ones on the escape wheel and fly, they're around 0.5 - 0.7mm diameter and hard as nails, they won't flex one iota and those arbours are a nightmare to pivot - Trust me on that!

Nothing to be afraid of, just make sure you let the mainsprings down first before stripping it otherwise you'll be nursing Very warm and tingly fingers for a while

John

BTW, I also have a box full of pendulum bobs for those movements, they are invariably heavy brass units if you've never seen one, but the main variant to this is a decorative grid iron type used on Napoleon III Portico or Empire clocks, they use the same style movement, but the gearing is slightly different as the rod is much longer and why the numbers on the backplate are important!

Also take a good look on the backplate for any stampings, if there is one (usually a circular or oval stamp) it will be the maker's mark and you'll need a loupe to read it!

I may have a few rods kicking around too, I'll dig them out later and see what types there are!

I'd also recommend Not using cocktail sticks anywhere near a clock movement, the wood contains acids that are detrimental to longevity, use boxwood (pegwood) sharpened to a point for pegging out pivot holes, and if you don't have a set of clock oilers, a steel needle or bit of small diamter blued pivot steel with a small flat on its tip for placing oil in the sinks, needless to say it should be spotlessly clean, also keep any oil pots covered when not in use as it will soak up dust like a magnet!

John.

Edited By RJW on 27/08/2013 18:15:33

Jason, on the back plate there will be a couple of numbers stamped, find those and input them on the link below which is Meadows and Passmore's site, it's an on-line calculator which will give you the correct length according to the numbers on Your movement, saves fannying around doing calculations!

If you have just dunked the movement in degreaser without stripping it, you will not have got rid of the WD40, nor the muck and grit you will have successfully washed into the pivot holes in the process!
Any lubricant you introduce now via the oil sinks will simply turn the WD40 residue into a goo and any grit in them into a very nice grinding paste!
Sorry, but your first course of action (if not done so already) will be to strip and clean it properly, Then assemble and lubricate once the pivots have been cleaned repaired and burnished!

I a long time ago stopped paying ludicrous amounts of money for commercial clock oil!
I use a lot of the stuff so make my own using 0-30 synthetic motor oil and Slick 50 in a 50/50 mix, I've never had a clock fail due to lubrication issues neither have I had one dry out and no visible signs of wear after some years of use!
PM me your address and I'll mail you a small pot sufficient to do your clock!

As previously said, no lube on any wheels, a small spot on each oil sink, not forgetting the single cock on the motionwork intermediate wheel!
Also put a small spot on each pallet, the escape wheel will transfer a tad to each tooth tip!
If it has a Brocot adjustment on the top of the crutch (the suspension spring will be pinned inside it), check the picvots and state of the wheels there too, the suspension block tends to sieze causing the gear wheel on the adjustment rod to either strip the teeth, or turn the rod inside the gear, the pivot hole may also have excessive wear if the previous owners were conscientious pedants with its timekeeping qualities!

I've just ruined a batch of Horolene cleaning out a Comtoise wall clock which had been liberally sprayed with WD40, and I'd previously cleaned every single part by hand soaking and brushing with acetone, even then I had to final clean every component with lighter fuel to totally rid them of the vile stuff!

I have several cases here that would house a similar orphaned movement, but a good conversion for you would be to turn it into a 'Skeleton Clock', in which the movement is mounted on pillars or into a brass frame of your design, loads you can do with it!
I have my own ideas in this vein, but I'm saying nowt at this stage as I'm intending to write up a project for amateur clockmakers!

John.

**LINK**

Just bushings or less frequently Chatons Niko, Chatons are generally a referance to screw set jewel settings in pocket and wristwatches, where the jewel is set in a brass or gold setting then the whole is screwed into the watch plate - generally only on high grade movements!
often for really small size and odd ball bushings, I'll cut them from a length of bushing wire!

Those bushings shown in the link are certainly small, getting down to pocket watch sizes there, which are similar in sizes to the upper end of French drum and and high grade Vienna regulator wheel trains!
If they work for you and you're happy with the result and make a good repair, I'm certainly not going to argue about them!
You're also fairly unlikely to have a broach jam in a bush and turn it at those sizes!

I have to confess that these days, I use Bergeon bushings together with a Bergeon bushing tool, the bushes are machined to specific sizes and have a related reamer similar to a 'D' bit for cutting holes in the plate, the hole and the bushes are also parallel sided and lightly staked, but they broach easily and make an invisible repair the way i do them, and up to their maximum diameter of 8.5mm, rarely turn in settings, but I'll still solder them in really 'iffy' plate positions such as winding barrels or hammer arbours sitting close to plate edges when I'll touch the hole with a taper reamer so there's a seat for the solder to flow!

That being said, I did originally broach everything by hand and eye, but the final broaching to suit individual pivots still has to be done by hand, because after repairing and burnishing them, pivots are always random diameters!
I didn't mention the Bergeon routine earleir because it's very unlikely anyone here other than a pro' repairer/restorer will have invested that kind of money in kit to re-bush clocks, but for me, it cuts the time to rebush longcase, Vienna and French drums by at least half - I also confess enjoying the luck of the Gods when turning up at an auction room got the whole shebang including a full complement of bushes for half the cost of the reamer and staking set!
I would also say to anyone thinking of going the Bergeon route, learn to broach and bush by hand first, that way you'll get your eye in and bushes will always be accurately placed in the plates and pivots similarly!

Going back to Simon's OP, depending upon the diameter of the pivot, he may get away with just bushing the plate in the correct place, but only if the edge of the bush removes the edges of the old hole, if it won't, he'll have to plug it if it's not to be visible!

John.

Edited By RJW on 23/08/2013 08:11:44

MichaelG, Brilliant link, best laugh I've had all day, unbelieveable what some people will do, I'm just thankful I didn't have the job of sorting that mess!

Niko, longcase winding barrel bushes in 3mm thick plates running 10mm diameter winding arbours will not take kindly to having new bushes reamed to size, they will turn no matter how tight you stake them, solder is the only way to effect a secure and virtually invisible fit!

These days I actually fit stepped bushes on the barrel arbours as it provides more support via an extra 2mm flange of the front of the plate, and with a 5 kilo weight hanging from them they need it, it slows down wear and is totally reversible should down the line, a restorer with anal views on 'originality' deem them unsuitable!

Smaller bushes are best reamed both sides of the plate with a tapered reamer, a parallel sided bush inserted and then staked, the bushing is then secured both sides of the plate with no chance of them coming out or loose, the solder is just for large bushings, but perhaps I didn't make that clear, apologies if not!

John

As a side note to my last comment, the exception to the solder on large bushings, would be on smaller bushings on American and German clock plates where they carve out so much metal there's near damn all left to suppot the staking of a bush!
If there's a risk of the plate edge 'belling out' when you stake the bush because the hole is close to the edge, solder it rather than deform the plate, if the plate deforms, it changes the pivot depthing and the bush won't be tight!

John

Edited By RJW on 22/08/2013 22:36:01

Simon as others have suggested, plug the hole and stake it tight, then dress off the surface, if you have some brass available from cutting the plates, use that then the brass will match!

I personally, would then redrill the hole in the correct place and insert a brass bushing about 3x the diameter of the pivot, (turn one up from the same material as the plug and plates if available), that way with a bush, you won't have a pivot running on dissimilar metal if the new hole runs across the edge of the plug if you've had to use something else - this is how I make invisible repairs on antique longcase and French drum movements!

Sorry Michael, but Please Please Please, to Anyone reading this who is involved in repairing clocks, Don't hammer the plates no matter how tempting, it causes bloody carnage and is hell to rectify and will not put the pivot in the correct place, any clockmaker worth his salt or reputation wouldn't even think about doing it!
Time and Time again, I've had to depth arbours to re-plant pivots because some heathen has belted around pivot holes with a centre punch or 'proprietory' punches designed for just a bodge, which invaraibly pushes the hole out of place!

Always think of the person who is going to follow you years down the line and next in line for repairing that same clock - and maybe undoing your handiwork, many times I've cursed botchers who have wielded punches!

If plates are relatively thin, then ream the plate both sides (tapered reamer) to a tight fit for the bush stake very lightly to secure the bush, but not so as to bruise or bell the plate edges, then solder it into place, once cleaned off the repair will be virtually invisible, And sound!

If you want to see some truly horrific punch ups I'll sort out some photo's in my albums - plus the remedy, many punch marks can't be totally removed sadly and they're an eyesore!

John

Mike, add into that mix all those drones populating sites who can't string a sentence together without brain numbing text speak, that recycled dross will be quite a bizarre read at least!

John

Edited By RJW on 21/08/2013 23:05:05

Sid, Firefox is now at Version 24 Beta4, think you need to update it pdq, if you click the 'Help' tab on the top toolbar, than 'About Firefox' , an update dialogue box will open!

John

This afternoon, changed two flexible front brake hoses, changed brake fluid, changed an inner and outer track rod and fitted a new catalytic converter ........ on a Renault Espace, THE domain of anorexic double articulated fingers, and I've anything But!

The Gods were with me Big Time though, because apart from wielding a burner and a very big hammer and crowbar on the track rod end nuts and studs, all the steel brake pipe unions came undone eazy peazy, no brake pipes emulated corkscrews or snapped off, no bleed nipples snapped off or needed crap drilling out, no manifold nuts or studs sheared off and the rack boot didn't split when dragging it off the knackered a very rusty track rod!
I did have a mild wobbly when I saw a black sooty deposit on the lower heatshield joint of the exhaust manifold, as that would have meant a feat of contortionism fit to tax Houdini to get it off, but it turned out to be burned grease blown out from a nick on the inner driveshaft boot ......Big oily wipes of brow in relief, changing the boot will be very small beer compared to a manifold on that brute!

After all that good fortune, I managed to miss the deadline for buying a lottery ticket for tonight .......... bugger!

John.

Thanks Jason and MichaelG, also apologies to Patrick, I appear to have inadvertantly christened him 'Peter'!

John

Ok chaps, it may surprise you to know that if you block the Facebook link on site threads, the reply to postings is disabled, curious that eh!
I've just tried to reply to this post and others, and couldn't until I re-activated 'facebook.net' (I use 'NoScript' which disables Javascript & Java unless you opt to allow it!
This must be new, as it's always been blocked before, maybe Peter Astill has had a hand in this development?

Now, I do use Facebook, but in a deliberately Very limited way!
(a) to keep in touch with my Sister, nieces and Nephews, all of whom live near 100 miles away from me, so it's a convenient way to keep up to speed with Family and what's going on in their lives, plus private messages through their FB messages goes straight to their iPads and Blackberries or whatever fruit they communicate with, it's often faster than waiting for them to read Emails!

(b) I keep tabs on a Private Jaguar owner's site of which I'm a founder member and which amongst many useful attributes, actively notifies members of stolen cars and scam sales on eBay and the like!

(c) My Gym posts up events and member concessions etc!

I do not follow Model engineer, because I have the homepage tabbed in my browser, and I don't wish to give any entity other than family members access to my homepage!

That being said, my FB account is locked solidly down to 'Friends Only', and I regularly check my security setting because Facebook are (allegedly) absolute ***** for constantly updating policy to deliberately circumvent member settings - do not ever allow 'Friends of Friends or Public access to your account because anything that ever appears on another member's account is there for life and you can't delete it!
Never use 'App's either, they're a warrant to spam you into oblivion as companies track you accross the web via the cookies they embed in your browser cache, some of which are 'super cookies' which don't die with a cache clearout, and if you don't know what they are ~Google it!!

I also entered a fictitious Birthday and home town in my Facebook account, both of which are required by default if you wish to open an account!

Facebook also have very serious privacy issues, many of which are constantly being highlighted by Sophos, the antivirus security company, the two links below are just tasters of what's going on:

**LINK**

**LINK**

Twitter is a waste of time, space and effort frankly, I have an account and can't be bothered with it, I don't follow anyone except my gym, I have no followers there and don't want them, I'll be closing that account soon!

As far as Facebook and Twitter and this site are concerned, the users on those sites are predominantly younger very tech savvy users, if they clicked to enter this site and had to wait the excruciatingly long periods of time some of us have to wait for pages to load, they'd be off like a shot never to be seen again, they'd also quickly pick up how crap the site software is, and ditto, they'd probably bin it!
Although there may be a new template in the offing, it may have been pertinent for management to have delayed pushing FB and Twitter associations until such time as they updated the site so it worked before alienating prospective new members, it smacks of microsoft pushing out new operating systems before it's ready and hoping not too many users pick holes in it!

Use those forms of media to drive people to this site by all means, 1% of whom may turn out to be seriously interested in the pursuit of Model engineering, but Please make your main announcements here to the very people who do actually support the site and have contributed to its continuing success to date in spite of its foibles, not to sites like Feacebook which are populated by dissaffected schoolkids spawning porn and bullying!

John

Edited By Diane Carney on 22/08/2013 00:31:12

Hi Nick,

Many thanks for that, and especially the link, some useful information on there!

The powder deposit on the rods isn't heavy, just generally dotted around the length of rods like very thin efflourescence, overall quite light really, it also brushes off very easily with no residue or sign it was ever there, some of it you can just blow it off!

The flux, from reading the data on the link, is probably rutile, which would follow your comment about not needing to be fully dry anyway, but they all feel bone dry and there's no sign whatever of cracking or flaking, and no rust on the rod ends which were either exposed or under the steel caps of the tubs!

I'll dig out the spec' sheet for them anyway, it may give you a better idea what they are, Metrode have been around a long time and originally supplied this stuff to Rolls Royce and the Royal Naval Dockyard at Rosyth according to the advice notes with the spec' sheets .............. so it was top grade stuff before it started growing whiskers!

John

Becky, I have an ERFI pocket TIG, which although not marketted as being capable of alloy welding was found by accident (hooking up the cables wrong polarity) that the unit would weld alloy very well indeed, OK it's not a Chinese make (German) but it was at the budget end when I bought it 15 years ago, so probably not a million miles away in similarity to your machine!
My machine doesn't have an Amps indicator either, just numbers on dials, so some experimentation is usually needed!

As you do, I use white tungstens and 7-8 on the argon, I also make sure I keep well out of any draughts from doorways or open windows!

I don't do enough alluminium welding to claim any proficiency, and much of which has been reclaiming corroded areas on alloy cylinder heads, but what I did find was that the area being welded had to be kept scrupulously clean with a stainless steel wire brush, And crucially with my machine, the weld was much easier to start and control if the metal was pre-heated with a blow torch!
If I didn't pre heat, the weld was a pig to start, and the tungten would stick itself to the metal leaving debris that had to be gouged out, ruining the weld!
Is it possible the 1mm (16G?) material you're trying to weld is cooling too fast with the heat migrating away from the seam too quickly?
Just my thoughts as your woes echo the problems I came up against!

John.

Hi all, back in blighty for a bit and doing some houskeeping on my hoard of stuff due to a looming house move!

I have a significant quantity of what were (are?) Very expensive Metrode welding rods, MMA and TIG, the TIG stuff is sound, in tubes and clean as a whistle, some looks to be wierd esoteric material so looking for a bit of knowledge or ideas what it would be used for!
I have Metrode spec' sheets for everything, but they tell me not a lot other than composition and type!

Initially, it's the MMA rods that are a poser due to quantity and I could do with a few honest opinions on uses for it or just for scrapping!
I've 19x 7.5 Kilo packs of 4mm 'Metmild Tensile Steel MP31' MS rods, some packs are sealed, many are not and a few tubs have got holes rusted through the sides!
Metrode have printed drying instructions on some of the packs, but I'm not sure the rods would still be any good, I've had them stored now for a decade in a garden shed and I'm shocked how damp the place has been (I don't get in there often)!

The rods and flux coating look ok, no rust, but the flux coat on rods in the open tubs are liberally spotted with white fuz, it rubs off easy enough and the flux feels dry, but are the rods useable if dried from this state or are they scrap, and if scrap, has the 4mm steel core any usefull purpose for model or general engineering use if the flux is knocked off?
I hate scrapping or chucking stuff away but I could do with selling the stuff off if it is useable, but I don't want to sell it if it's knackered!

I'll post up the other stuff as I work through it!

Any help very much appreciated,

John.

Edited By RJW on 18/07/2013 22:48:04

Congratulations Fizzy, enjoy, they grow up so damned fast it's unreal!
Great name choice too, my Granddaughter is called Grace!

Best regards to you both and may you enjoy a dream daughter who may just sleep through the night like mine did ............. in fact she slept so well I was a bugger for staying awake to keep checking on her ......... probably a Dad and Precious Daughter thing!!

John.

Any good?

**LINK**

Mike, my Burnerd chuck has exactly the same issue, it is an irritation at times, but I do what Chris does and live with it, but must admit I keep thinking I should sort it out!

If your chuck jaws are the same as mine, the bosses on the back are stepped in to locate on the 'scroll blocks' (for want of a better term), the face at either side of the bosses are polished and locate in shallow channels on the chuck face (just visible in your photo), those channels and the backs of the jaws do get fouled with fine brass and other debris which can cause the jaws to jam, so they need to be kept spotlessly clean!
I mainly use the chuck for rough metal chewing, if I need total accuracy I use collets.

John.

Barry, are any of the wires for the brake clutch?

Table saws if of fairly recent manufacture have a brake on one end of the motor, and a characteristic is that the motor stops quickly when they're switched off, it's a safety feature, my table saws and bandsaw are fitted with them!

Can't quite remember just how they operate but I seem to remember a 'fly' type governer on the brake which activates the brake circuit when the motor is up to speed, but 'activation' keeps the brake 'off', when the stop button is hit, the circuit to the brake is cut and and the friction discs are released which brakes the motor - and the blade, Fast!

John