Member postings for Ramon Wilson

Just read this through - a few thoughts to go with the others.

I've passed this on before I think - I've found the best thing for holding tool bits to grind is a hole that will accept the diagonal dimension across the tool bit drilled in the end of a short length of round bar. A simple grub screw in the side will hold the bit secure for grinding, the round bar giving a good hand grip and allowing infinite angular positioning on all faces.

I've confessed before that when it comes to tool grinding I'm very tardy once the tool has had it's major shaping but after a life time of not doing anything but cooling the bit in water I do not share the fear of damaging the tool that some have implied. Just simply never had an issue with it and I've seen a few glow hot a few times for sure.

An HSS tool will colour, as any steel, if too hot but, unlike carbon steel tools, this will not affect the cutting edge performance.

Try this to see - grind a piece of HSS until you do get it blue then cool. Very lightly regrind the faces to remove any trace of blueing. The tool will still cut perfectly well. Do the same with one of carbon steel and you will soon see the difference as the edge deforms under cutting pressure. As has already been stated HSS will still cut at near red heat though obviously not for long.

For what we do in the home workshop and what we used to do at work you'd have to work really hard to spoil HSS hardness - it's hardening temperature is way in excess of carbon steel - it comes out of the oven quite yellow at the correct temperature.

I rough grind tools on an 8" grinder but finish grind them on a small 5" one.

There is no need to grind text book angles - just near enough will do - remember it's only the part that's at the depth of cut that does the work so that can be tweaked to get optimum performance - the rest of the tool behind is just there to hold it in position!

Best - Tug

Similar in principle to some of the above this is mine on my S7 - quickly adjustable it allows work right up to a face plate

I have two lengths of bar (1/2 dia Silver Steel) which is set using slip gauges. The bar impinges onto a hardened button Loctited into a hole drilled in the side of the saddle.

Best - Tug

Thanks Neil, That's a good enough reason as any .

I guess we are all different as it has no effect on me in that way at all. WD40 as said is another matter - the last company I worked for bought it by the 25 litres and we all had hand pump spray bottles to fill and use it with. As well as working the Haas there I also did a fair bit of turning and used it a lot to begin with - it did not take long for my lungs to really respond to it. I find it a pleasant smell but rarely use it in the workshop and never on any machining because of that reaction

Nigel - I expect days of old had many an old trick - keeping a bottle of spit for continuous use on a batch job just doesn't appeal though I'm afraid

In the days before Rocol there were of course the tallow sticks bought in varying diameter sizes to suit the tapping hole and later of course that horrible smelly stuff called Trefolux - good product but a bit too greasy for my liking. Strangely enough I react to Rocol too - if I had a job where it was in continuous use the skin around my nose would begin to crack and split - quite sore.

Following Robin's comment I looked for petroleum ether earlier. It's much dearer than acetone. A litre is £20-25 as opposed to around £25 for 5 litres of acetone.

I also use cellulose gun cleaner as a basic cleaner for many tasks including cleaning airbrushes but I need to wear a mask for anything but the smallest of exposures.

Best - Tug

Ha! Robin, it's a far day from taking your can to the local hardware shop or the weekly van delivery of 'Aladdin'. I find a garden centre the best source for it these days.

As a matter of interest what kind of tap wrench are you using - If its the flat bar type and you are doing it free hand it's very easy to wring. Couple that with the material and it can be a disaster waiting to happen. Not knowing your circumstances but if you can support the tap in a drill chuck to keep it aligned it makes a big difference. I also have a small knurled disc about 18 mm dia. with a grub screw though the side for drive to use on small taps - the control is far better.

A very good, but relatively expensive, tapping fluid for ali is that sold by TapMatic - this also brilliant on brass, making a dullish drill bit cut like new whilst the fluid is in contact. A litre was well over twice the price for a litre as opposed to 4 litres of paraffin.

Disagreeing with you Neil, is not something I would have imagined doing but your use of castor oil is somewhat surprising mainly from the clean up point of view. I've never tried it on ali for tapping so don't doubt your comment that it will work but it's the most sticky gummy substance to deal with - just look how a model diesel will gum up not to mention it's ability to transfer to everything you touch to leave the same residue.

No, I've used both for long enough to know which one to use - your comment " you try to avoid Kerosene as much as you can" is also surprising - can you say why?

I use it (kerosene) all the time in the workshop for cleaning and lubricating - it's easy to clean off too. A mixture of 90% and 10% oil makes for a good lapping lube, a wipe over the lathe or mill after cleaning down etc etc. It doesn't dry hard like castor eventually does - that usual requires a solvent or heat to resolve.

Each to his own of course but my money's on the Paraffin

Best - Tug

Ha, I missed that comment Jason - couldn't help but comment too though, they look so similar. The Waller was a third bigger of course and that flywheel rim was the first 'homer' the new Haas machining centre carved out from a flame cut ring. Coo! that was just over 25years ago

I'll look forwards to dipping in and out to see how it's progressing

Hello Jason

Nice to see another 'Jason build' but it does look vaguely familiar

Remember it from HMEM?

Good luck with yours - it looks like a real nice improvement on the original JC

Regards - Ramon

Outside any modern, probably very expensive, specific fluid my view on using paraffin as lube on ali is based on many years at work and at home turning and milling all grades of the stuff.. WD 40 does work but nowhere as well as paraffin (kerosene) If WD40 is used to improve surface finish on lathe or mill then the fumes created can soon lead to quite unpleasant respiratory issues and I've definitely been there!.

Meths is alcohol - not a lube at all but okay for cleaning the part after of course but then acetone is so much better.

Best - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 01/02/2023 12:09:12

Thanks for inserting the video Jason.

Jason is right in that controlling the exhaust outlet does slow the engine but why not do it at the correct point - at the inlet

There's a big difference between the 'throttle' operated by the governor and the 'steam inlet' or to be correct the 'Stop Valve'

The governor throttle is usually shown as a simple butterfly valve but the difference in movement relative to the airflow is very small indeed. Most, though not all, full size stationary engines have a stop valve to open the engine to the steam pressure but it's the governor that sets the speed, either via a throttle or by affecting the valve gear opening period. A stop valve is much the easier option to control speed on a model. Relatively easy things to make to be in keeping with the model a bespoke one gives a lot of satisfaction but a commercial ME sized valve is fine.

All engines made so far have a stop valve to control the airflow and speed of the engine irrespective of incoming air/steam pressure.

On the Lang Bridge Double Diagonal engine made, the drawings were the best (model engineering) drawings I'd ever seen or worked from - before or since. Surprisingly there was no governor. A call to the company revealed that this engine, the full size of which is in the Bolton Museum, was never fitted with one. In life it had powered a calico printing press and as such the speed was set by the stop valve opening to suit the speed of the specific print design being printed.

Here are some valves made to suit

The Twin Victoria

The Lang Bridge engine

For the Waller engine

The Corliss engine

Given what you've made so far you should have no issues in designing similar to suit your beam engine.

Hope that helps a bit more

Best - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 31/01/2023 08:10:58

Further to my previous post I realised that I did of course make another engine with governor - the M'cOnie. Again I think this was a barrel type but can't really recall.

I've just tried to embed a video of it running but without success. If you take a look Here you can see just how ineffective the governor is.

Another factor to bear in mind is the linkage from the governor to the throttle - it really has to be smooth and of precise movement - you'll see that (despite my assurance that it is free on this model) the governor makes little, if any, effort to move throughout the RPM range the engine is run at.

Edited By JasonB on 30/01/2023 18:29:50

Hello Leon,

In a full size situation the governor is mainly there to keep a constant set RPM - ie the working speed. If the engine for what ever reason speeds up the throttle closes and if a load comes on slowing the engine then the throttle opens up to bring it back to the set RPM

From a model perspective it's difficult - though not impossible - to achieve that but if a model engine is just for display then it's probably best to just ignore the throttle and let the governor follow whatever speed the engine is run at.

Increasing the governor pulley diameter relative to the drive will slow things down but even with a perfect throttle is very unlikely to achieve the result you are after.

I have made three engines with governors - the first, a twin Victoria had a throttles of my own design rather than the butterfly type recommended. These were on each steam chest connected by a common shaft. These were a barrel type similar to an RC carb. The second was on a scaled up Waller engine, again a barrel type and the third on a Corliss engine that controlled the timing of the valve opening.

All worked to a degree, the TwinVic the best of them - if a load was applied to the flywheel the governor would operate the throttles or valve gear but not enough on any to call a 'successful' governor.

The key from a model point of view is 'Throttle' - I'm my view its difficult to make a really effective and efficient throttle - especially the butterfly type - that works smoothly and efficiently relative to the governor speed

It's each to his own of course but a lot of time could be spent trying to make an effective governor set up to run the engine at a constant speed when for the most part it's visual effect that's required. In that case a governor that just goes round at a speed relative to the engine speed is all that's really required.

Regards - Tug

PS For a second engine that looks to be some very nice workmanship - good luck with the rest of the build 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 30/01/2023 16:50:49

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 30/01/2023 16:53:14

Yes how true that is for sure Ady, and as we get older the reality of it hit's home that much harder.

John, as you can imagine all the above posts and kindly advice have not fell on deaf ears. After considerable thought and talking it over with my wife ( who after all, will have to deal with it - eventually) a change of intention has been reached. Some kit will have to go but the lathe and my faithful old Linley mill will remain in a much rearranged workshop. It will take a while of course but fear not guys - the basic kit stays.

Tim - hope you've been able to make a start on that Boll by now

My thanks to all who have made comments on this thread, all of them much appreciated - six engines are now sold so that's a good start

Best regards to all - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 29/01/2023 17:17:12

It's a through hole Kwil

Horrible stuff as everyone says - a larger hole than that usually dictated and use paraffin (kerosene) rather than WD40 - much better than anything on ali at any time. Plus Gas is good too but difficult to find these days I would think.

If it's as gummy as you say though you may well have to think of an alternative

Best - Tug

Hopper,

Yes, that's basically my thinking - certainly on these engines. My stationary engines are a different matter though - they're here to stay for the foreseeable future at least.

I have quite a few things I'd like to do with the remaining years I have left and machining, I feel, has really run it's course so time to move to something different. While I'm able to I shall remain as active as mind and body allows

Regards - Tug

Morning Guys,

Thanks again for these further comment. It is good to hear from all of you.

I do hear yyour concerns from a 'selling it all' point of view and obviously have already considered that aspect. However I am at pains to say that won't be happening entirely now - I can certainly see that it would be foolish to part with my lathe only to down size so no, that's definitely staying.

I have decided that in order to gain some much needed space a revamp of the workshop will be required, Some items will be up for sale in due course. Intention though, as often remarked before, and reality are two completely different matters!

Interest has begun in the engines and three are now sold.

Thanks again for this unexpected but much appreciated response

Best - Tug

'Guys'

When I opened this up this morning I was not expecting such a response! Thank you for your kind comments - all of them. Quite unexpected, somewhat surprising but all much appreciated.

This decision, which has taken several months to arrive at is not based on health issues, physical or mental (though some would perhaps question my sanity over it) but a desire to move on to fields afresh in what active years I have left to enjoy - I assure you I will not be vegetating. If you count Meccano I've been making models for 73 of my 78 years so I don't intend to stop at this stage.

'Machining', from my very earliest attempts at it, very quickly became a passion and remained so until quite recently but the desire to continue in front of the lathe or mill has diminished considerably.

Parting with these engines is not one of needs must but simply that they sit, in boxes, in a drawer unseen by all. I had immense pleasure in making them but once made they remain hidden. My wife Sue has requested I mount one of the 'Atomatics' for her to display so perhaps I might mount my favourite ETA too, who knows. The rest though are quite redundant objects where they are - there's been little response from Barton so we'll have to see what eBay brings

Pastures new are very much focussed on my love of plastic modelling - a recent need to reduce the diameter of two very small diameter pitot tubes has made me question the intended disposing of my lathe so that will remain.

So once again, thank you for those thoughts. I'm not down, I'm not out and have no plans to give in yet, just a change of direction.

Lowestoft Bernard? See you there

Best regards - Tug

Hi Guys,

As I move rapidly toward my eighties I have decided not to continue with machining after the Marine Engine is finished.

As such I have decided to part with some of the I/C engines made so, though I doubt it, if anyone may have an interest I have just put a post on the Barton Control Line site describing some of them. Take a look here if so

Best - Tug

John - I have in ,my possession a coil winder made by an eminent model engineer of his day - one Ernie Shaw. I worked with his son Martin who passed it to me long after his father had passed on.

If I remember the story correctly it was made for making coils to manufacture scale electric motors for a scale model tram as a result of differing opinions in the ME of the time of whether it could be done. Possibly pre war I would think. I believe it was a successful project and I think his main protagonist was none other that Edgar Westbury but you would need to see the ME's to verify that

My engineering days are coming to an end so if you would like it it's yours. It was given to me so the same goes - the only caveat that once you are finished with it I'd like to think you would pass it on to anyone similar should the same situation arise.

Send me a pm with your address if you are interested

Best - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 05/01/2023 13:11:33

Hi Zan, Jason,

I wasn't aware that the John Tom site was no longer available. If you are talking about the marine engine article I have them on file so could easily send you copies of them if you let me have your email address.

Good luck with your Mc'Onie - a lovely engine but do check the measurements on width build up between the frames as there are one or two that can lead you astray. Also the position for the governor pedestal - that's dimensioned off the edge of the baseplate at opposite datums. Position it relative to the (assembled) crankshaft position for best results.

With the complex valve gear I expected mine to have issues with the set up but I worked to the drawings on all components and it ran straight off.

Best - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 03/01/2023 13:34:23

Thanks Derek, A Happy New Year to you too.

Workshop is cleaned and all put away ready for the next, and hopefully the last, session next year.

Must admit it does seem a bit strange to stop but it's needs must for me at this point in time I'm afraid

Patience then, so 'they' say, is a virtue

Very best - Tug

Peter,

Plus one for Jason's comment on the beam manufacture. I was intending to make (now a defunct intention) a larger Mary beam engine (another nice design that lends its self to fabrication methods). That is exactly how I intended to do the beam, the outer strips with the groove in, filed to give a draft angle once assembled. No silver soldering necessary if not desired as a few small screws and JB Weld would be more that adequate to create such a component. A little thought can produce a very convincing 'casting' more than adequate in strength for the job in hand

As Jason's link indicates all the bosses (again with draft angles) will be in a alignment side to side too and not offset to one another as most castings seem to be. If heavy chamfers are put on the holes and/or the bases of the bosses this gives a much thicker fillet of JB Weld and a much stronger bond - it's best to use the JBW as a structural addition rather than an 'adhesive' per se

From my own perspective there will be little if anything made after the Marine Engine but I have now used JBW on enough projects to know that except for really small parts, silver soldering for the most part is redundant in such fabrication work. No heat so no potential for distortion and no clean up of wayward solder. When it comes to pipe work the parts can be assembled on the model for perfect alignment too.

Were I to be continuing with my model engineering journey it has to be said I simply would not part with my cash for 'castings' except perhaps for a flywheel on occasion but even that can be over come by fabrication.

Good luck with your journey

Best - Tug

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 30/12/2022 09:10:42