Member postings for Alec Gunner

I use Simply Bearings and Bearing Boys and have always been very happy with the service. However, more recently I have needed some unusual imperial sizes and have found that Senior Engineering in Leeds/Bradford have been able to supply. Luke Senior who runs it has been very helpful in advising what brand to go for as some of them have changed somewhat since the days when the original bearings I'm replacing were made. Prices were lower than Simply Bearings on a like for like basis too. Certainly another one for the list to try.

Alec

Edited By Alec Gunner on 10/07/2022 22:38:58

Thanks All for the further replies - that gives me exactly the information I needed. Still slightly surprising that these do not appear to be available as a part, but I can now see what I need and they are easy enough to make from a bit of bar.

Alec

Thanks Swarf, Mostly

That is really useful information. I was aware of the role the backplate plays in achieving location through the register on the mandrel nose and the squareness of the face (ie the need to skim), and was aware that it achieved radial location through the male register, but I didn't know it should not bottom out and it hadn't occurred to me that the holding screws did not therefore play a critical role in location. I had considered them as actively preventing axial rotation through being a close fit in the holes but in practice I can see that this could be achieved instead by friction between the outboard front face of the back plate and the rear face of the chuck body, so the screws will not be critical.

The only limitation will then be something neatly fits both the main bore through the body and bears on the lower surface of the counter-bore as that will be load-bearing face. I therefore wondered whether Burnerd had employed a screw with an enlarged head diameter to increase the contact area, or used a standard size to keep costs down. It appears from comments so far that it is the latter so anything which fits should be fine.

Alec

The chuck I have obtained is one of these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314060769553 - the pictures on the link show the slotted screws on the front which screw into tapped holes in the backplate. It should be fairly simple (within my abilities anyway) to make the screws if I have to, but if they are a standard form or available from a specific supplier I can save considerable time and effort, and have the chuck operational sooner which would be useful.

The chuck I have picked up has rebated holes in the front to take screw heads. It is labelled 'The Burnerd' on the front so is before the merger with Pratt. The holes are plain through the chuck so I am anticipating cutting threads in the backplate holes. This suggests that the correct screw would have a plain shank the depth of the chuck body and a threaded section into the backplate. It would seem logical for Burnerd to have made the chuck with a standard depth for different machines so that the body and screws were common to a range of machines and only the backplate needed to be varied, but just because that seems logical doesn't mean that's how it works. I am hoping that this is the case and the screws follow a standard form, rather than being Burnerd specials, but it would be handy if that was the case.

Can anyone advise as to what the screws used to hold a Burnerd 4-jaw chuck to a backplate are? I have purchased a 6" chuck for my Myford/Drummond M and will need to machine and attach a backplate. I had a look on the usual suspect websites (Chronos, RDG, Ebay etc) but can't see any specifically listed which struck me as a bit odd as alternative backplates for different machines is common practice and they are readily available, and the screws are an obvious part to need to replace if the slot gets chewed up when doing so, but I could be searching under the wrong term.

It will matter what they are as the shank will need to fit the hole and the head will need to fit the rebate. If that corresponds to a standard size cheese head machine screw then that would be excellent as I can just buy them off the shelf, but if not then I will have to make them. I would be grateful if someone could point me at dimensions and/or a source.

Thanks

Alec

Thank you for the further comments on tool design/selection. The thread has wandered (as they do) but for me it's all useful information as I set myself up to use the lathe rather than just fix it.

The C spanner has arrived, the spindle has been removed and the bearing realigned. A bit of head scratching as to how to turn it but a drawing courtesy of David George indicated that the bearings are externally conical so re-fitting the locking ring and tapping the bearing back using a wood block had it loose so I could rotate it. Fortunately the wedge is still present.

I also realised that the wedges have to be inserted from the inside, and that removing the spindle alone does not allow the pulley cone to be removed from the headstock as it won't clear the casting without also removing the back gear. Fortunately everything is clean and smooth, and none of the thrust bearing balls dropped out, so I decided to leave that alone and simply reinsert the spindle.

I have also dressed out the worst of the abuse on the locking ring slots - mostly it was possible to 'forge' it back into place. They are still a bit ugly but much better than they were.

I will make up a temporary oiler bolt today and get it set up and running. Assuming everything goes well I can then look to make some proper drip oiler bolts and the other short-term need to is to machine a register on a faceplate which I have picked up that has the correct thread but no register, and then probably purchase a backplate for a 4-jaw chuck (having now bought a suitable Burnerd chuck) and do the same.

I might eventually manage to use the lathe to make things other than for the lathe itself - otherwise this could become a self-sustaining project in its own right!

Alec

Thanks Howard,

It's my understanding that the main limitation with running the M at high speed is that it has plain bearings which will be damaged by doing so. High feeds should not cause a problem - this is pretty robust, so Dave Halford's comments on machining steel using tooling and settings designed for aluminium are very interesting, although having had a quick look aluminium-specific tooling certainly does not look cheap!

I hadn't heard of the Tangential Turning Tool - that certainly looks like it would make my life easier. Filing the edges to 12deg and chasing out the groove for the cutter by hand would be an interesting challenge but as you say, absolute adherence to the angles probably isn't critical so I could get close enough for it to work.

At present I am still waiting for my C-spanner to turn up (supposed rapid delivery time has not been met) so am a bit stuck but once I can get the headstock sorted out I should be able to get on and actually use it for something, which will be a lot more satisfying.

Alec

Edited By Alec Gunner on 02/07/2022 16:47:21

Thanks for the further advice. I will find a suitably sized piece of broom handle.

I was aware that the ML7 and the M do not share the same nose spindle (DiogenesII - it's 1-1/8" x 12 TPI on the ML7 and 1" x 12 TPI on the M, register 1-1/8". I was thinking in terms of finding a similar type of 4-jaw chuck with integral thread of the correct size for the M so that I could use more of the gap to swing something oversize in rather than relying on a faceplate set-up, but I take the point about overhang on either the carriage or the tooling.

I won't be running it until the bearing is fixed - I can't anyway as it currently only has one of the two drive belts in place. I'm not aware of there being any felt though - it appears to simply feed through the hole in the wedge directly on to the spindle bearing.

The information about carbide inserts is particularly interesting - I am not very good at grinding up HSS and whilst I am sure I will improve, I will waste a lot of time and material (or do a lot of filing to restore surfaces) in the meantime, so inserts would make life considerably easier.

Based on the suggested information it appears to be possible to take much heavier cuts than I was expecting which would be good news if true, although 0.1mm per pass is what I am used to so can live with it.

Alec

Thanks David and Hopper for the further information.

Progress is necessarily limited as I don't have a suitably sized C-spanner, so have ordered one but will have to wait until it arrives to take the nuts off. I have stripped the back end down - the collar with the grub screw did not have a piece of copper under it so I presume it would be a good idea to make one - I'll see what I have lying around in the way of suitable copper (probably an old MIG tip will yield something). There were no nasty surprises getting in as far as I could at the back end, and it all feels smooth, so fingers crossed.

David - offhand do you know the spindle OD? I like the idea of tapping through with a piece of wood that catches everything in order, but want to make sure I don't use anything too large which will jam up. I have found an online copy of the Drummond manual which appears to give me what I need by way of a drawing.

One win - the link belt from countershaft to headstock turns out to be the same length as the belt needed from motor to countershaft, so I swapped it over and the wobble has gone. The pulley on the motor needs moving down a bit to get it in line, and the large pulley isn't quite true in plane, but nothing that will affect running at the kind of accuracy I am looking for. Just need to order another length of link belt.

Ref. the collet set from RDG - they appear to have both an ER16 set and an ER25 set in 1MT. Apart from the latter being nearly double the price but allowing tools up to 16mm, are there any other pros/cons I should be aware of?

Hopper - I may not be lucky in finding a chuck which mounts without a backplate for the M, but the 4-jaw did exist for the ML7 with an internal thread - see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154976775357?hash=item241555ecbd:g:dZQAAOSwFzZicNkV for example. The clue is that there are no screw holes on the front face. A version is still available new from RDG.

I do still have the 'Catch 22' of needing a front lubricator bolt to run the lathe, but needing the lathe to make the bolt. I think a quick conversion of a standard BSW bolt by drilling a hole up the centre on the pillar drill and creating a good approximation to the cone angle by spinning against the grinder should suffice to get it running and then I can make the proper part, although that will be a bit interesting as I will have to use the catch plate and I haven't tried one of those before.

Alec

Thanks David, that's great information. I will take the cover off the rear of the spindle tomorrow, locate the grub screw. I can't do much else until I sort out a C-spanner.

The front bearing has spun - what do I need to dismantle to access it enough to spin it back? Is it as simple as taking the front nut right off and I should be able to poke it round, or am I in for a complete spindle strip-down? I'm hoping the wedge is still in there somewhere as otherwise I have another thing to make, although that probably isn't as challenging as making the lubrication bolt without a lathe!

Fingers crossed it's not the pulley causing the wobble, as that's a distinctly Catch 22 situation of another part which needs the lathe to fix it. I will try changing the belt first. Looks like I have a few things to sort out, then I will try using it and then decide which modifications will be worthwhile for me, but I'm pretty sure I will need to sort out a quick change tool holder one way or another.

I'll drop you a message re. the milling slide.

Alec

Thanks Dave, help appreciated, and I am sure there are many Drummond/Myford fans who will be delighted!

It's odd as they appear the right way up on my computer but reverse as soon as they reach the folder. Maybe I should try taking my photos upside down...

Alec

Thanks Hopper, that helps a lot.

Following your comments I had another look and observed that the Norman tool holder does indeed hold 1/2" tools at exactly the right centre height. The 4-way toolpost is about 1/16" too thick on the base which lifts it just above centre, so skimming the base off would be the easiest option (once I have a suitable faceplate or chuck). You can still get suitable M-type back plates but they extend the length of the chuck which reduces the capacity to use the swing so I will hang on until something correct turns up. I can just use a faceplate for now once I find a suitable one.

Through a process of disconnecting belts in turn it is definitely either the motor to counter shaft V-belt or the counter shaft itself which is causing the wobble. The belt does not show any signs of having a set but it is the easiest option to try to eliminate as a cause so I will buy a replacement once I have worked out what I need.

I won't be cutting the cast in toolpost off, but I do need some form of more rapid tool changing solution as a lot of what I want to do is repeat sequences of cutting, e.g. for nuts and studs. I don't want to have to keep swapping out the tool every couple of minutes on the Norman tool holder. A modern quick-change tool holder that I can bore out the centre on to a suitable size would be the obvious solution.

The oiler appears to be more of an issue than I first thought. I can't see any sign of anything down the chuck end hole, suggesting that something has rotated in there. It is still free and smooth so hopefully not too much damage, but it does mean I now need to work out how to dismantle the headstock far enough to see what's going on.

I have had a look on the drummond.io site and that looks very useful.

I did attempt to add pictures but somehow between my laptop and the album on here they have turned upside down, so until I know how to reverse that I won't risk cricking anyone's neck by adding them to a post!

Alec

Having recently bought a 1946 Myford M a few questions have come up, both general to the model and specific to my machine. I had a look through the forum but can't find answers to these particular ones, so, bearing in mind I am a novice, here goes:

The toolpost arrangement seems odd. I have both the clamp-on type and the 4-way post which are designed to take tooling of up to about half an inch, but the centre height seems too high as anything over about 5/16" (8mm) toolling falls well above the minimum adjustment for centre height. Is there a reason for this? It would also be very convenient to fit a quick-change toolpost to get the height adjustment set up without shims. I am aware of the modification by removing the original cast-in toolpost but has anyone successfully bored out a quick-change toolpost to fit the 1-1/4" original post? I know most are hardened and hence difficult to do this with, but annealing case hardening is possible, or there is an unhardened one from Chronos. Has it been done?

Whilst wear appears acceptable in most parts, I do have a lot of wear in the half nut with over half a turn of backlash. I have seen the bobbin-type repair approach but am not yet confident enough to attempt that level of work. Has anyone made these for sale? I also have some adjustments to make as there is a bit of end float in the headstock spindle - I have read the instructions (and the notes on adding/changing various bearings) but I can't claim to fully understand the pros and cons of the various approaches. It looks like the starting point is to obtain a suitably sized C-spanner to slacken the bronze collars, but I can't see any castellated nuts?

I definitely have a missing oiler on the front end of the headstock and my understanding is that since this also serves to lock the bearing and spread it slightly, simply dropping oil down the hole is not a suitable substitute. Any ideas on where to find a suitable oiler or, better still, to find a drip oiler? I can get simple oil cups from RDG but don't actually know what the thread is?

The whole machine has a wobble. Whilst everything runs true relative to its own reference, the wobble makes it difficult to check what is happening whilst turning. It seems to trace back to the motor - this has the bench-mounted counter-shaft/motor unit so whilst the motor pivots semi-independently, the whole assembly has some degree of coupling to the bed, both through being bolted to the bench and through the tensioning bar. The motor is a Brook Crompton and probably contemporary to the lathe. Any ideas why I am getting a wobble or how to stop it?

I have a reasonable amount of equipment with it, certainly everything needed for now, but there are a few things which would be useful to add at some point down the line so am keeping an eye out for the original slimline 4-jaw chuck and a faceplate so that I can swing larger items in the gap. The two which are unlikely to turn up are a reverse tumbler and a milling slide. I therefore wondered whether anyone had successfully used these parts from an ML7 and if there were any issues in doing so? It appears that the ML7 slide should be a drop-on fit to the cross-slide (removing the top-slide and accepting that linear movement will need to be on the leadscrew). The ML7 reverse tumbler appears to be easily available and fairly cheap - can it be adapted?

Finally, and somewhat trivial, but what colour should it be? Mine is currently Myford 'aqua' and I have seen a few others for sale in that colour, but it has certainly been repainted, The fixed and travelling steadies (which of course may not have originally been with this machine) have not been repainted and are a sort of murky brown/green/grey, similar to that shown on this page on lathes.co.uk - http://www.lathes.co.uk/drummond-m-type-post-1924/page2.html (see particularly the close-up of the headstock). However, this does not appear to be a recognised colour for Myford, as in Paragon don't list it, so does anyone have any idea what it is and if that would be correct? I don't plan a major rebuild but some parts would benefit from a clean and paint to keep the rust off, so since I will need to buy some paint I might as well get the right colour from the start.

Apologies for the long list but hopefully I'm not duplicating too many previous questions.

Thanks

Alec

Edited By Alec Gunner on 25/06/2022 11:47:02

Edited By Alec Gunner on 25/06/2022 12:11:19

Just to round out this thread, I contemplated a Clarke combined lathe/mill which came up at £600 and thought about modern secondhand machines but in the end a Myford M turned up at a good price so I will see how I get on with it. If it does what I want then I will need to find a 4-jaw chuck for it. If not I should get my money back.

Alec

Thanks All for taking the trouble to respond.

Firstly, to clarify, I am not suggesting that all Chinese lathes are poor quality, but I would anticipate that anything bought new within my price range would be. A quick look on Ebay finds a brand new machine which claims to be capable of 180mm swing over bed, 350mm between centres with screwcutting for £338 delivered. If someone can tell me they are good quality machines then I would be delighted, but I fear not.

The problem with selling the South Bend is not sentimentality but practicality. It has the capacity for the occasional larger job which I cannot hope for in a bench top machine that I can move out of the way. To a large extent, that is the point - I have a space constraint which cannot be addressed, so I am looking for the best option which fits within that constraint. Identifying a brilliant 100kg+ machine simply doesn't address the requirement, regardless of how nice it may be or what it may cost. So far, I haven't found anything which requires a higher budget that meets this constraint, so am looking for views on whether I have missed something. To put it another way, say I had an unlimited budget, does that open up any good options which can be moved on and off the bench?

The need to move it fundamentally defines size and, in general, how heavy a cut I can take. I am not worried by this - 1/4" deep cuts is a luxury I have never had - more than 0.25mm would be nice but that's what I am used to as a best case. I am less worried by accuracy per se (i.e. run-out is not an issue) but slackness in non-adjustable parts becomes an issue with tool chatter as I do tend to machine some materials which are prone to grabbing (Monel, titanium alloys etc). I would rather have a belt slip than strip a plastic gear when that happens.

The Sieg SC2 or SC3 is another possibility I hadn't considered which I presume is similar to a Hobbymat or Emco with similar limitations? The Drummond/Myford M looks like the most attractive option of the older machines as it has proper back gear for low speeds. I can probably arrange to mount the motor and drive shaft on the wall so they don't have to be moved, either on a heavy enough shaft that the pulleys can be mounted outboard of the bearing for easy removal of the belt, or with a demountable outer bearing. If the headstock and tailstock are easily removed then the whole thing is moveable in a reasonable timeframe.

Alec

Edited By Alec Gunner on 23/05/2022 19:43:42

Thank you for the further thoughts.

I had been advised against the Drummond round bed on the grounds that there is no way to take up wear in the bed (which may well be an issue in something the age I am looking at).

I had run across the Hobbymat, which looks promising so good to know that it is a worthwhile machine. Is there much to choose between Hobbymat, Sieg and Emco given the choice?

Light cuts are not an issue - the Lorch will just about do 100micron per pass in brass. It would be nice to be able to go a bit heavier than that but I can live with it if necessary. This isn't exactly a production operation - just making a handful of parts whenever I need them. That said, it would be handy to have something which responds to overload by slipping rather than stripping the teeth - the point of having low gear is more torque so you would like to think the drivetrain was up to the torque it can deliver. We actually stripped the teeth by trying to swage a piece of  fully annealed 15mm copper tube down to 1/2" using a well tapered mandral, but it got about a quarter of an inch in and the teeth went.

Whilst something I can lift would be useful, I can live with 'shift' rather than 'lift;. The moveable bench idea is close - but in my case it's a high-lift trolley which means so long as I can roll/slide something on to the deck then I can lower it to shelf height which means no lifting at awkward angles, just rolling/sliding which I can set up for easily enough. My bench top is a piece of inch thick steel plate so it's easy to bolt down on to it so rigidity is not a problem.

Alec

Edited By Alec Gunner on 23/05/2022 08:32:21

Edited By Alec Gunner on 23/05/2022 08:33:08

Edited By Alec Gunner on 23/05/2022 08:34:05

Thank you for the thoughts so far.

I would prefer not to sell the South Bend as it is very capable and well equipped. If anything, I would be more inclined to sell the Lorch as they seem to be making extremely high prices and I really don't use it to its capabilities, but the main issue is that I need something I can move around and extra budget doesn't seem to help much with that.

I hadn't considered the M. There seem to be a few about at a reasonable price (unfortunately they all seem to be on the South Coast and I am in Essex, which is not ideal, but could be done). I am not that familiar with the different makes/models of 1930s-1950s British models so it's very helpful to have an opinion on which are preferable, as there isn't that much in it for price between them.

I seem to still have the same four options within my budget:

Something new, nasty, probably poor quality and needing various bits replaced due to premature failure (the gears stripped on the one at work the first time we set it in low gear!)

Something vintage, of which the M has a recommendation and I could shift it around, another option being a Zyto - there is one on Ebay currently at £75 which looks pretty decent on the face of it and another went on Facebook Marketplace a couple of days ago for £375 which had an excellent assortment of tooling with it.

An M10 - they do still come up within my budget. I was offered one a month or two back for £350 in good condition with a 3-jaw chuck and a faceplate but nothing else. Of course, at the time I didn't need one...

An Emco Compact 5 with milling head, which fits the bill of being multi-purpose and portable but I'm not sure how capable it really is. These seem to go for around £450.

I suppose the advantage of having many options is that something will definitely turn up, but if there are any opinions on which of them to rule out it and why it would be useful.

Alec

.. and since I forgot to mention it above and can't edit the original post, I have searched through the forum for previous threads on the topic as is usually recommended, and found a lot of helpful comment, but I couldn't quite find anything which addressed my specific question as 1. My budget is small; 2. The usual adage of 'bigger is better' does not strictly apply for the reasons mentioned above and 3. I can live with loss of accuracy (e.g. wear creating increased play) if that is the price to be paid for keeping within the other criteria. Hope that helps clarify thoughts.

Alec

Hello Everyone,

In common with what appears to be 90% of people joining this site, my initial reason for doing so is that I am looking for opinions regarding choice of a lathe.

I already own two - a South Bend Heavy 10" and a Lorch KD50. What I need is something in between. I inherited the South Bend 15yrs ago from my father, it is still set up in his garage (where my mother still lives) about an hour from my house. It is on a cabinet and set up with line shaft drive, and I just don't have anywhere at my place to put it. I also inherited a virtually unused Chester mill at the same time.

Until recently I have had access to a cheap, nasty Chinese lathe in a small workshop at work (along with a small mill). The lathe really is nasty - plastic gears, and the metal handle on the toolpost snapped when trying to get it reasonably tight (but an M6 socket head cap screw now serves). I tend to spend my lunch breaks making simple things such as unobtainable BSF nuts, bolts and studs up to around 9/16". I tend to cut the threads with taps and dies, just using the lathe to start them square. Accuracy tends not to be critical for the things I want to make and any occasional bigger item can go on the South Bend; truly accurate items go on the KD50.

The workshop is now to be repurposed so I need to buy something which will do the job. It needs to be benchtop, and I need to be able to lift it off as it will have to share the limited working space on the garage bench. Not really having planned for this change in access, I have a distinctly limited budget - not much more than £500. Choices appear to be:

Another cheap, nasty Chinese lathe with plastic gears, accepting its poor quality and that I will have to progressively make new bits as they break.

A 1930s-1950s flat belt model such as a Zyto or a Myford ML1-4, checking for cracks in the headstock clamps, buying with as much tooling as possible and accepting that I will not want to lift/carry it far.

A Myford ML10 with minimal tooling. Realistically, a machine with just a 3-jaw chuck seems to fall within my budget and so long as there isn't too much play in it would do the job.

An Emco Compact 5 would be truly bench-top and moveable, and with luck I can find one with a milling column which would also address the occasional need for shaping things which are not round (e.g. hexagonal bolt heads) which will otherwise have to be done by hand with a file, or wait until I visit my mother's place.

I would welcome thoughts on the above or other ideas that I have missed.

Thanks

Alec