Member postings for Chris Mate

Mill Drill Quil Lock used with Fine Adjust provided on ZX-45[ZAY7045M] mill(New).

When Quil is locked the Dial Indicator needle deflects, a DRO here would probably not work well as a result.

Ver-1=A tap washer was used.....It worked but....

Ver-2=A stiff spring was used, but after I tested it with my wife with no mechanical experience, she was only 2/10 times successfull advancing the quil down 0.1mm without deflecting needle. I then realise the stiff spring was giving a too narrow band of tention to judge the drag applied before Locking the Quil without understanding how it works.

Ver-3=So I relook the effort and decided to use two weaker springs which gave a much wider flatter tention range that was enough before Locking the Quil and I could Lock/Unlock with the handle with in one turn, within 380 degrees, so now you look at the handle position, and you know instantly where Lock & Unlock position is.
The 3x washers can be played around for 1-Needed gap, 2-For determining the Quil Lock position.
My wife could repeat every time with this effort without the needle moving after Lock applied.

So here are the pictures for those that might be interested:

I added photos to explain some parts made & used:

1-I added positive tention to quil spring, made tool.
  -I prevent quil spring cap being jammed by tightning bolt.

2-I added preload before quil lock to prevent dial indicator give false readings.

3-I am now happy with this on my mill.

Edited By Chris Mate on 31/03/2022 10:12:05

YC Lui, remove your quil lock handle , then go to otherside and remove the round nut, it has an angled face as well as the opposing part of the quil, so it will try to lock in the Y- direction without the nut turning, see if you agree-?

YC Lui, I understand what you saying, my problem is how the guage I am using to go down step by step as I mill.
Due to the problem you mention, I could not trust my guage, and my question was how accurate due to this would a DRO be.... I prefer the guage(Dial Indictor) knowing this now, because its very easy to observe a needle swinging rather han a DRO given numbers that jumps up or down and I have keep on computing that in my head.

Even without the selution the dial indicator will be an uneccassary effort to keep track at wich dept you were and where you aiming for.

Now with the selution what I see on the dial indicator after locking the quil is the same as before locking the quil is the same as which nect depth of cut I adjusted it to, so I go forward straight forward.

Think about it like this:Before the selution, if you advance the quil down say0.01mm then the dial indicator does indicate that, now you lock the quil your indicator jumos 0.05mm. Because of this it mess with your head as you going forward.

I know have a selution that workd for me with the tap washer, I am going to try to improve on thsat by maching two round pieces with a spring in the one to compress for preload, like the washer. The spring will be longer laster.

Note: The ideal in this Quil-Spindle-Fine adjust engineering would have been such that wherever you lock the quil down that is the position it sit before the pockdown, so it does not move. I can probably make a contraption doing this, but not at this stage with what I got. I have to plow in more money for cutters and MT Collet holders and collets, just face milling at the moment to sort out some problems I can eliminate.

Note:If you mishandle the preload(too stiff), or lock the quil, then touch and turn the fine adjust, you are presented with a complete new problem if the quil is unlock...Now it jumps to who kmows where, so once you started milling down in steps, you must not loose track of the backlash in the fine adjust wormwheel.
Play with tis and you see what I mean...Now with the selution you can take it back to where you came from by using the preload.

Note:I did look at my mill heastock adjustment with crank handle and will fit a DRO to the vertical ways, this will be no problem. Actually it does go down easily and smoothly and thats the direction I am milling in any case, its just as it is more cumbersome to use as the fine adjustment, unless I modify it, using a 90 degree small gearbocx and with steering universal joints bring it forward beneath the left side of the bed with a proper handwheel to adjust.(I will probably do this).

Ok, I keep it short, after two days of looking into the Drill handle-Microfeed setup & Quil Lock I have repeatble success. I end up back at the Quil Lock mechanism and thanks Martin Connelly for your photos, I arrived at a selution with what I had today had on hand.

A-I removed Quil Lock assembly complete, Handle + Rear angle faced part to match the quil facing part inside head. So I found dirt & paint blops o this part. I cleaned this area thoroughly.

B-I then look at the preload idea.

-I added two washers with in between them a water tap rubber washer and two smaller washers on the end. I the cut a washer 3/4 thickness of tap rubber and a hole to house the tap rubber(stiff).

-Assemblyp: Handle.....small washer....Large washer.....-Large thicker washer bored out to house water tap rubber-....Large washer...Small washer(To take up gap between casing & hole to tighten Quil Lock aganst.

-I found an easy spot to point the handle(Repeatable as well-Pints to end of electrical box casing front), preload in action now....., I then dial in the guage to depth, lock quil and needle does not move....I repeatedly did this without mill running, and with mill running the needle do not move when locking all you see is a little vibration from mill running(repeatedly).

So Martin Connelly your idea works, I just did it with different components......At least after all this crap I know the mill better. (In this whole process the fine adjust backlash decreased from 0.7mm to 0.35mm, not sure why).

Today: I thought more about this now I have a work around established.

A]-If you play with the fine adjust wheel up and down without milling, I reach a pint where I wound up the "spongy backlash" out so it reach a point where as you go on from 0.1mm to 0.2mm to0.3 mm locking unlocking the quil in the process that you can go forwad with out the Red gauge deflecting...This is playing with it. The blue guage just confirm the spindle centre tip stay put at every stop. So removing the blue gauge is ok to go forther with the red guage.
-Now however if you actually mill, you cannot just wind on through the part you milling, you mill in small steps.
Because of this everytime after a milling, when you adjust it down a bit for next mill, that spongy backlash is back all over. This is where I use my workaround as descibed before.

B]-Today: I decided to look at the Handwheel-Wormgear design, the quil + spring + its backlash is one thing, what happens here is another. I completely forgot about this spring.
-THe workwheel assembly in housing is solid no play in this desgn with two bearings.
-I decided to look at this backlash...It feels huge turning the knob, but according to the non adjustable scale on it, it has backlash of 0.7mm......Then I ralise this is roughly the 1st needle deflection I saw when locking the quil, and as I repaet that process described before this get less and less at the red guage while I know the spindle stasy put. So something weird is going on in this arena, my thoughts.

C)-So today I am going to look at the SPRING fitted to the knob on drilling handle you wind down in to enguage the Fine Feed handle and wormwheel. I know the quil with its spring press against the wormgear, I can hear it, it sounds like tacky grease making contact in this assembly.

-I am going to remove the spring.
-I am going to replace the spring with same lenght bushes and shorter bushes to mimick the spring compression if needed.

-I am not sure where this is going to lead, but I think its an area worth exploring.

My problem is all about locking the quil, to Mill by using the Fine Feed.

Jason B, the blue indicator do not move if I lock the quil, this one is stable, however when actually milling, I of course cannot use this one, its in the way. "The spindle do not see the problem" If I could have tapped measurement the centre of the spindle, I would have had no problem.

So I have to use the red indicator(From Quil)......I find a way around the problem.

It works like this:
To determine when the Red indicator can be trusted, I used both, and both move together, until I lock the quil then the Red one kicks off(My problem, now I am in the dark(Originally).

-So when milling, I chose a setting on red one to aim for.
-I then turn it to that measurement on indicator, ok, but as soon as I lock the Quil it kicks back like 0.5mm.
-I now turn the fine feed again up to the setting aimed for, lock quil, it now kicks back 0.25mm.
-I now repeat this process, it now kicks back only say 0.0125mm when Iock the quil.
-I now repeat the process and turn the fine adjustment to the aimed setting, now it does not kick back anymore when I lock the quil.
-Know I know it will mill to the setting I want and aimed for in a way thats accurate enough for me.

My point is this cannot be right, so much effort.

-I am looking for a selution before I will try to speak to the reseller, I 1st want to get all my ducks in a row understanding exactly what is happenning. At least I got a workaround now.

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 17:47:57

From manual:

Hi, thanks for the comments, got a lot of thinking to do.

1) Regarding the problem I have, I am not sure if the Quil move seperate from the spindle, or if by locking the quil it amplifies a tiny bit wrong not clearly to be seen by my .01 indicators.


2)-A complete another problem, it catch you unexpectedly, also the Fine Adjustment.

Say I pump it in at the target I set, lock the quil finally at target, I then intentionally or accident touch & move the Fine Adjustment over its backlash, The quil just free falls down, now if the machine is running above a part with cutter, this can be a huge problem, so I am luckily aware of this now without crashing it into the workpiece.

---I found if I do anything like slightly stiffening anything, the quil, or the Fine adjustment, I can fall into this trap, I feel I must feel the backlsh freely and clearly, iven if its a lot on the wormwheel.

Note:THe Fine Adjust wormwheel the mating round part of which the worm turns into has dip machined into it, I suppose that is correct, it looks strange-?

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 11:39:42

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 11:40:19

Ok, I took a test cut Aliminium bar:

A-I Trusted in Mitutoyo Dial Indicator(Red in drawing) mounted to head, measuring the Quil up/down with the Fine Adjust wormgear.

B-From an in dept experiment between the two guages setup, I determend that if I got them syncroed, then chose a target measure lower it to that, the Red Guage of course not on target with Blue gauge.
-Now if I pump the quil lock lever between lock and unlock, I can step by step advance the Red Guage to the same value as the Blue guage that dont change with the Quil Lock/unlocking.
-So from this I trusted that by using the pumping action I can mill ok.

C-I remove the Blue indicator, and put the aliiminium bar in the vice & tighten/Hammer down, tighten.

D-I am now ready to chose mill a starting surface...I milled that once, back, twice, back, thrice..
-----I mark this setting as zero on Red Idicator(Mitutoyo).
-----I then move the quil up a bit, wind the X- Axis back and measure the starting diameter with Digital Calier.
The result is 39.66mm.

E-I am now ready to chose a cut= -0.066mm off.
-I carefully Lock the Quil-Pump, Unlock-Adjust, Lock-Pump, Unlock-Adjust, Lock-pump, Unlock-no adjust needed target reached.
-I carefully mil it Once, back, twice, back, Thrice, unlock adjust Quil up.

---Move X-axis way back so I can measure(Vice in centre)...

Result:
Start=39.66mm
Target=39.594mm (-0.66mm)

Measured=39.57mm...........(The 0.066, the last 6 I guessed.(Indicator-.01mm).


I think I am happy, let me know...My problem is the effort to get to that, this effort seems impractical and wrong to me.

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:57:45

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:58:45

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:59:46

Here is an illustration: This is about using the Fine Adjustment for quil/spindle.

I can get the "Red" indicator close by repeatedly locking unlocking the quil, but if I unlock it, the Red indicator sags away from locked reading...If I actually mill this is worse.

I am pretty sure one can trust the spindle behaviour when quil is locked and you mill, but that is not where I can mount a DRO pick up of course.

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 07:49:48

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 07:50:27

Maybe how I am trying to say something is confusing. I used 2x indicators at the same time.

1-I have proved already with a another Dial Test Indicator in the vice clamed upwards to the spindle pressing on the spindle, that if I Lock-The-Quil, there is zero change in vertical position that I can see at .01mm type of Dial Test Indicator...This reading is constant at zero, does not matter how I move the quil up or down with the Fine-Adjustment. ...So it seems the machine can cut accurate from the machine's spindle centrepoint perspective.

2-However at the same time as I move the quil up or down, my fitted Dial Indicator does not always agree with the Dial-Test-Indicator, this one may or may not show up to .5mm difference. Now this can maybe only due to the quil moving sideways, and this Dial Indicator(Also .01mm) picking that up because its not pointed to the spindle centre.

3-My argument is if I fit a DRO to quil it would be similar to how I fitted the Dial-Indicator and it may be inaccurate, in the sense it can mislead me trusting it------?

Maybe a long time german machinist visit me next week, I will show him exactly what I see(Had discussed it with him on telephone, he did say he never use his quil adjustment), and hear his opinion on this. He has a knee mill.

This is a ZAY705 ZX-45 Mill DRill setup...

Sorry for confusion, I am trying to illustrate that trying to tap the spindle up/down movement(Z2) is much different than the usual others like: I am trying to understand the differences trying to tap the movement.

Lathe:The spinning part don't slide but spin.(Chuck/Collet etc)

1-The apron movement along the bed(Horizontal) Not spinning.
2-Crosslide movent(Horizontal) Not spinning

Mill:The spinng part(Spindle can slide with help of the Quil)

1-The Quil/Spindle=Z2 Can move Vertical up/down.
-------Spindle spinning. (Slide with Quil)...You cannot tap the spindle itself)
-------Quil Not spinning. (Not spinning but can slide)-Vertically...You can tap the quil, with some consequences other than with the other horizontal types.

2-The Headstock=Z1 axis(Column) Not spinning.
3-The Bed/table X-Axis Slide horizontally.Not spinning.
3-The bed Table Y-Axis Slide horizontally. Not spinning.

I see a big difference trying to tap the movement from a Mill Spindle compared to tapping the movements of those sliding horizontally as well as the Mill/Drill headstock sliding vertically.

Just curious if you see my point(s)..........I never thought about this like this ever before untill recently.

This is just a friendly question looking for opinions/thoughts around this, after thinking a bit different about the subject: I think I May have identified an accuracy standoff........

-----Ills of accuracy locking the quil on a DRill/Mill.......

With a Lathe the subject spins , the tool stand still. The ways are horizontal.

With a Mill the tool spins, the object stands still compared normally.
With a Mill the X/Y ways are horizontal, while the Z1/Z2 are vertical with some weight involved with Mill/Drills.

DRO: Now if I fit a DRO to ether a Mill or Lathe way which is horizontal or vertical it will probably give an accurate representation of the position it represents and can ignore backlash.


Now when it comes to connect a DRO to represent a mill's spindle height, is impossible seeing the spindle is spinning. The nearest you will get to the spindle is the Quil. Now the further you are mounted from the centre of the spindle the more an ignorable FLT in spindle from centre perspective will be amplified as you go further away with your mount, and this may go up or down measuring with a dial indicator or DRO fitted to quil, which can confuse you.

Now today I went futher with my mill experimentation with dial indicator and and trying to read the spindle movement.

So I fit an extra dial test indicator from below(Vice) measuring at the center of the spindle, not the quil. Now when operating the mill, this is of course not possible to do, because theres going to be a cutter in operation at that position.

--SO I found that if I adjust the fine adjustment handwheel, If I adjust it down say 0.01mm and lock the quil, it everytime stay there, if theres a FLT, I cannot see it with this dial test indicator.
----However----
--For the same action, my other dial indicator mounted, I would say at least much more sturdy that any flex/arm type of magnetic dial indicator holder.
Now think about this, while I know know the fine adjustment does not influence the spindle movemet(Just do not mess with it and then unlock the quil, it will move the spindle)....This indicator may or may not stay in the same place if I just unlock/lock the quil....

So I want you to think about this situation....
1-I cannot trust thr fine adjustment indicator by factory, but I can trust as log as I move it foreward only(Cut deeper and deeper), I cannot trust my dial indicator linked up to the quil.
2-So I have a standoff here....

So from all this in concideration, the fact you cannot mount anything to measure to the spindle directly, do you think a DRO representing the spindle centre itself can ever be considred accurate to eliminate the backlash effect, so you can mill the depth you think you are milling without quessing to the end between cutter and part-?

A-So this week I made a holder vthat fits slipfit over the quil spring cup.
-I bored it out to fit, then drill and tap 8x 8mm holes evenly spaced, made a gap on the inside to accommodate the end of the spring that protrudes the cup. I bought a knob with 8mm tread on it some time ago from 2nd hand shop, and it fit like a glove for this purpose to adjust the spring not to damage yiour fingers/hand as it gets stiffer.
1-You remove the quil lock handle(Easy, quick).
2-If spring in unwinded, you wind it up till it may slip out of hand and you has to do it all over.
3-Now you fit this tool over and screw the 8mm gear lever handle in one of the treads to have leverage tightning direction. Then you tighten the other 7 bolts. Now the spring cup is gripped and you can upwind it a notch or two.
4-This worked great.

B-I discovered another problem.

THis mill has the spring cup hold in place that it not fall out and unwind by a known + washer that screw in. The problem is when you tighten it, the washer pushes against the cup and that causes the quil to have a spongy feeling(Not the grease) just before it reaches the home position, lets say the 3-5mm. For me this is a problem.

To solve this I inserted a smaller washer below the large washer to prevent the larger washer to push against the cup firmly. Now the quil return firmly back that last 5 mm. If you dont tighten this knob. My drillpress has similar spring cup design, but does not have this problem.

I did read up on other mills, and the various opinions on quil spring tention, neutral even in bridgeport case with tool weight taken into account.

Now with this all fixed, I will try to mill using the dial indicator, then measure it to see if I mill as accurate as I think I am by using the quil lock & fine adjustment in certain order. As soon as the quil is locked, the fine adjustment must not be touched at all. If milling cycle is complete, the quil lock is unlocked, the dial indicator stain same spot, the fine adjustment handwheel is adjusted in correct direction, the dial indicatr indicate next cut depth, you lock the quil, dial indicator do not move, you mill & repeat.....This is now my understanding of how I can use this mill in this way Z2 Axis. (Z1=The head up or down)

Note-1: I will think about the fine adjustment handle holding its position, or at least if you touch it, not mess up your depth by unlocking the quil. I found that putting resistance in quil lock assembly can give you false feeling of backlash, and if quil is unlocked, you will see it drops unexpectedly, which can interfere with your cuting expectations...This is just my opinion now or the time being.

Note-2:I had relook at Drill Press with similar quilspring assembly. The drillpress has 2x locknuts so you can tighten them without screwing the springcup down on shaft and the drillpress has a small play here, unlike the mill had.

Edited By Chris Mate on 19/03/2022 21:22:33

Edited By Chris Mate on 19/03/2022 21:23:34

Martin Connely: I found what you did very interesting.......After all my thinking and experimenting previously, and I understand the conical spring washers are stiff(Relative), Is there s change, and I am not sure if you lock down it fully(100%) or keep it semin locked down say 70% meaning the fine feed can still adjust with constant move as you decribe.

My question is, if you keep it at say 70% locked with washers, will some cutters be able to pull the quil down while you taking a somewhat heavy cut to remove material-? This is a problem I saw coming playing with lighter restrictions-?

Ok, after a day not touching the mill, I decided to do a little experiment with everything/the grease settled down.
1-Spring tention still as I left it after cranking it up.
2-Grease still not removed from worm gear.

The Dial Indicator has 10mm travel and thats what I am checking out from zero travel of the quil.
-Travel and deviation on quil lock as spring gets more tighter as quil goes down.....

Travel=.01mm...........Deviation=.03(Way better than orininally)
Travel=.02mm...........Deviation=.03
Travel=.03mm...........Deviation=.02
Travel=.04mm...........Deviation=.01
Travel=.05mm...........Deviation=.01
Travel=.06mm...........Deviation=Zero(Spring reach required tightness it seems)

Travel=.07...to....10mm=Zero(I saw a few .005mm variations in between, less than a 1/4 of tests)

Travel...So it seems after the initial travel down of .06mm its prety much zero deviation if I lock the quil.
Now this never happenned in 10mm travel with the spring more relaxed.

-Next step is to remove the grease and see if theres any difference with it removed.
-To increase the spring tention another notch after making a tool to grab the spring holder without messing up some fingers if it slips.

Note: The quil fine adjust worm gear, you as operator willingly ...engage or disengage... by turning a knob deeper at the 3x levers mount (Where some fits a steering wheel) of the normal quil movement. You cannot have both at the same time, either the one or the other.

Jason B
-Interest about the larger knee mills and they not using the quill for fine adjustments. Maybe theirs are doing the same thing by touching the micro feed while the quil is locked, then unlock it and boom the height had changed without you ready for that-?

Paul

-The mill is new. I would not like to do this just yet, untill I clarified this understanding more, and can give the company a better maybe explanation. I am pretty sure if they give me another one of the same, it will just be the similar, and this is the only one with the swivel bed. I will try to discuss it with them and see if they get what I am trying to illustrate.

Neil

- I will play for another week with it before making any changes further, including cutting and measuring the result to see if I got what I thought I cut.
-Also I never before playing with the fine adjust of the quil, when I lock it down, for the dial indicator not to move less than .1mm........Only after I adjusted the spring tention it it got down to .01...Zero, so the spring tention must have done something.......THe "sponginess" I detected, I think must be the grease I added to worm gear.

Note: When you lock down the quil, you can adjust the micro-feed wormgear, that small handle will move either way...The Quil is now locked, however not the wormgear by design......What then happens in interesting=If you moved the micro-feed handle by any means=If you now release the quil lock, the quil WILL move because of that backlash, and interesting with the tighter spring it will move actually faster than before.

Note: By going the route of adjusting the head up and down by adding a ratio to get a finer adjustment, can eliminate all this on the quil, I then just lock the quil and move the head and lock that, I must still test how the head react if I lock that.

Edited By Chris Mate on 12/03/2022 07:52:53

Edited By Chris Mate on 12/03/2022 07:58:09

Edited By Chris Mate on 12/03/2022 07:59:43

Ok, I think I made some progress....Play down from .1mm..........."Spongy/Leaky"........to .01mm.....more down to .......Zero movement. This is way better than  I experienced after doing the following:

1-I took the mciro-adjust assembly with wormwheel off, cleaned it thoroughly, inspect, I don't see problems with gears or play in assembly bearings.

2-I then properly greese the assembly wormwheel, and re-install this mirco-adjust assembly.

3-Now I rechecked, and found no difference, still .1+mm quil locked down.

4-Ok, now I relook at the spring.......Loosen it released.....With Quil locked at home position.
-I then crank it up to where the Quil/spindle move back to home position on its own.
- I then crank the spring further up 4x notches, stasrt to get real difficult.
-I then decided to crank it further up to the full turn, now this was not easy.

5-Ok, now I startet measuring again.

-----I saw/observe some "spongyness/Leaking" of the Dial indicator. Strange.
-------It behaved as I go down through 10mm differently at various depths down.

--------Sometimes I get .01 when I locked the quil, way better but not stable.

Result(Temporarly)=After cranking the quil up and down through the diall indicator 10mm travel, I noticed it became better and more stable.

>-------->My theory:

a)The spring tention play important role, although messing with the micro dial while quill is lock, is a risk, if you unlock the quil will jump to the setting you achived by messing with the micro dial.

b)The Grease:I think the grease I used may have caused the spongy readings initially, and as the greae was displaced on the worm gear it got better from .1mm+/- to .1mm to zero.


So some things to think about is the Spring tention of Quill as well as the Greasing of the worm gear assembly.
This worm gear assemble is all metal.
-Now I have to consider removing the grease all together in the work gear assembly, maybe the thinnest oil I can get...??

This is probably not the end of this, I must also find a way of getting rid of the play as in other mills of the drill stop mechanism, which is not good to begin with.

Edited By Chris Mate on 11/03/2022 15:33:12

Edited By Chris Mate on 11/03/2022 15:34:16

Edited By Chris Mate on 11/03/2022 15:37:22

Edited By Chris Mate on 11/03/2022 15:38:00

I did some thinking and going to try it out, the dial indicator will show if theres a difference or not.

I noticed compared to my 2 drill presses, that this mill I needed to help the quil back to top position a bit, I actually liked it so ignored it.

I am going to tighten the spring tention on the quil return quite a bit, so maybe it overcomes the 2x backlashes positively, and take the mistakes I can make in judging the position on fine adjustment and lockdown out of the equation, just maybe, I never thought of this before.