Member postings for Jelly

Glad to have been somewhat helpful.

If you did weigh things up and go the DSG route (with that 1307 or another similar lathe), then I can recommend both "R.R. Memmory Haulage" and "Hansard Haulage" for that kind of thing, moving heavy objects including machine tools, and Hiab-ing them on and off the wagons is their bread and butter so they can be just left to get on with it quite safely.

R.R. Memmory in particular also have some specialised smaller vehicles and trailers for delivering very heavy objects to locations that you'd normally only be able to access by car, which might be of assistance with the final leg to your workshop.

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Regards a tool-post for the Trens SN32, my TOS S32 has the same Multifix B offered with the SN32 which works very well with 25mm tooling (25x130 is the "standard" holder for that size of toolpost, but it's sometimes easier to use the 32x140 holders for 25mm tools as they're less snug).

I believe the Cross Slide and Top Slide used on the SN32 is the same design as was used on the S32, and only the apron differs between them (on that assembly, there's other major differences).

Whilst it is possible my holders may have been modified by the previous owner to allow them to go lower to get on center with 25mm tools, but it doesn't look like they have; so I suspect Trens is just being conservative in their tech spec's.

Edited By Jelly on 26/10/2022 17:13:19

My guess is that a UK/European Manufactured/Re-Manufactured lathe would probably be pushing at the the limits of your budget, but by the same token you are in the position where you could actually spend your whole lathe budget on a lathe, and be up and running from the day you take delivery, so maybe it's worth it?

The DSG's and the TOS/Trens's are both pretty heavy beasts, just massive (literally) amounts of cast iron used everywhere (especially in the headstock); my TOS toolroom lathe weighs in a 2 tonnes for a 320 x 1000 capacity, and a 13"x36" DSG is about 2.8 tonnes - both comparable in size with a Warco GH1330 which weighs about 580kg.

To match or slightly exceed the Triumph in size (Trens SU50 or DSG Type 15), you're looking at 3.8 - 4.5 tonnes with either of those brands.

DSG did do metric lathes and I would think most re-builds get new metric leadscrews and nuts...

As a near-complete aside in relation to DSG and leadscrews; I did see one (It could have been a Lang, but I'm pretty sure it was DSG) configured with dual leadscrews, a selector, two half-nut levers, and an interesting dual layer thread chasing dial, unsure if that was a factory special or a user improvement but always thought it was cool.

The TOS's from Trencin, the polish brands from Andrechowska, and the Stanko's all shared the rapid travel feature as part of their generally high specification, the difference (to my knowledge) is that the TOS and Polish lathes have a 4-way joystick on the apron, whilst the Stanko has a conventional feed selectors (two-position, or three when equipped with power top-slide) driven off the feed-shaft, and the rapid feeds are push-button controlled running a separate 3-phase motor mounted directly to the side of the apron.

Edited By Jelly on 26/10/2022 13:35:42

I don't really get what you mean...

The Poles have long had an excellent reputation for making reliable, durable and accurate machine tools; branded variously as Poleba, Polameco, and Toolmex, most lathes were made by Fabryka Maszyn Andrechowska.

I'm not sure who did/does the mills, but they were a direct copy of the FNC25/32 design produced across multiple Soviet/Former Soviet states, which is amongst the best "turret type" milling machines in existence.

Ironically more common in the USA and Canada than here, where the Czechs with their direct land border with Austria seem to have cornered the pre-Taiwan (pre-pre-China?) market for import machine tools.

Edited By Jelly on 25/10/2022 13:47:55

For the kind of money that we're talking about here, it occured to me that contacting a smaller manufacturer direct wouldn't be out of the question.

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The one which jumped to mind was TRENS SK a.s. known as TOS Trencin before the fall of the wall, they're still making new machines, the prices aren't insane from what I've heard, and they're some of the best medium to large lathes ever designed, right up there with your DSG's, Lang's, Monarchs and American Pacemakers.

The SN50/SN500 seems to fit the bill, and is available in motors from 5.5kW to 7.5kW and spindle bores up to 105mm, and you get the 4-way joystick controlled infinitely variable, automatic stop power-feed system which is pure luxury.

Sure there's a faff element to a DIY import, but a good logistics company should be able to take the transport and customs bit off your hands as combined shipping and customs agent.

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The other obvious two are:

• Dean, Smith and Grace themselves, who sell factory rebuilt examples of their original (and excellent) line-up,and
• (as others have pointed out) the 600 Group (Harrison/Colchester/Hardinge/Bridgeport) who are still selling new.

I suspect that a rebuilt (and warrantied) DSG or a new "Trens" ex Slovenia would both be cheaper than and more satisfying than a new Colchester (or a new Chester).

I think these days if you shop around, you can get an adequate quality inverter type welder for a reasonable price, which will offer broadly comparable performance to running the kinds of machines most colleges have for their main welding workshop.

(I happen to have been to the workshops at Vision Center / West Notts College, and they run pretty nice Parweld inverter mig and tig units, and whilst good units they're not *that* different from much cheaper copies available via the net.)

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Thing is if you have the space, and/or know you'd use it frequently you can get really good second-hand industrial welders on the cheap because the market is less active than for small units which will run on a 13A plug.

For example, there's a LAR500 Mig/ARC power supply with Separate Feeder and overhead support arm going for £300 on ebay at the moment, and it is a very tempting offer, but it doesn't have some of the sheet-metal welding features of my current welder, so would end up wanting to keep both.

That said, my MIG unit is an old-school ESAB Smashweld 180 (wonderful name, and good description of how previous owners treated it) which will (mostly) run on a 13A plug (it's better off on a 32A plug if you want to use the full 180A) and cost £90 "spares or repairs" with just the contact tip and nozzle missing off the torch (which is a nice Binzel MB).

Fully understand, the "I made it myself" factor is important to me too.

With the silver soldering, my experience is that you will get significantly more benefit from buying sufficient fire-bricks to largely or fully surround your joints, than you will from spending the commensurate amount on a larger/more powerful torch.

Also, if you have space to store an additional small cylinder, then oxy-propane (using a standard BOC/Murex oxy-acetylene torch converted over by screwing in an £8 propane mixer) is an awful lot easier to use when trying to heat bigger workpieces. As people are going off Oxy Fuel welding, barely used outfits can be had second hand for less than the price of a decent propane only torch.

If you're an infrequent user then a 10lt oxygen cylinder from Adams Gas (or hobbyweld, who aren't as cheap) is actually very economically priced.

Edited By Jelly on 23/10/2022 22:27:28

Yeah!

With the cash Daedalus has available he could probably spend half on getting wholly satisfactory machines and half on adding extra space for the 30+ years of stuff which will be made, needed or otherwise accumulated in pursuit of their hobby.

In retrospect I definitely regret not expanding my workshop when I had the chance, but maybe I'm just a terrible hoarder.

In my experience the smaller (300mm-450mm swing) industrial Chester Lathes are much of a muchness with the larger Warco's and with the Optimum's that Excel import; all perfectly good lathes which you'll be very satisfied with once set up.

This said, you would definitely be able to get a better lathe for the money be which is more feature rich and/or massive by buying used from a reputable dealer, but that's set against risk of faults developing or just wear, and I'm sure you've already weighed that up in deciding to buy new.

I would assume that the small/turret mills are a similar deal where Chester don't have a definitive lead over their direct competition, but can't justify that against first hand experience, as the new mills I've used have been XYZ's (even in workshops where they bought Chester or Optimum lathes). I don't know why exactly, but it might have been XYZ's good "ProTrak" style conversational CNC terminal offering which made them more versatile as a manual/CNC cross over.

From experience I would strongly suggest getting a turret mill with an ISO40 taper if you can fit one in, it opens up serious high quality tooling for very reasonable prices on the used market, and gives you the stiffness to use the machine's power to its fullest (you feel the benefit mostly when cutting gears or using a face mill).

Ultimately in your shoes, I would draw up a list of the machines you want and the minimum spec, then email or ring all the importers and (new) dealers going "this is what I want, what's your best offer all in?" and maybe angle for sweeteners like tooling or DRO fitment.

With 20K and that tactic, I would expect to be able to walk out with a decent Mill, Lathe, Surface Grinder, and several ancillaries (Box Column Drill, Bandsaw(s), Dividing Head compatible with your mill, Universal/D-bit Grinder, Pedestal Grinder, Press etc.) by leveraging the fact you're willing to drop a big chunk of change.

Edited By Jelly on 22/10/2022 23:30:57

Best bet would be to ring commercial stockholders and ask them to process you the blank you need from a standard size product like 150*150 square; a big stockholder who carries lots of CI will hopefully carry rectangle sections in suitable size, saving you some hassle and cost.

But for what you pay in cutting fees, you offset not buying the additional 5" of thickness on that bar so it's always worth pursuing that. If they're regularly selling CI or Special Steels this kind of thing should be pretty normal for a stockholder...

• West Yorks Steel have always been great for me with small orders and special cuts (mostly die steel), and do carry cast iron in many grades.

• Colt Material Solutions carry significant quantities of CI in a range of grades with defined properties including ductility and vibration damping.

• M-Machine Metals Carry large section cast iron as both GR17 and SG, but oy as square or diameter, I don't know that they have the same processing facilities as the others, but are worth approaching.

Edited By Jelly on 22/10/2022 22:08:01

Based on your dimensions I think I have *just* enough of the appropriate size of steel stock in my "drops" pile to fabricate that frame.

If I do indeed have enough steel, I'd be happy to weld one up for you, with the decorative details left oversize for you to shape to a template with files/die grinder.

If you're local to me you would be welcome to pop over get, the bits of steel, take them away to shape to your satisfaction then bring them back to be welded.

Based on the information posted about these inverters on myCNCuk (here) error code 1 corresponds (cryptically) to "Module Protection", which seems to be talking about the power module and correspond to a short circuit or current overload.

Edited By Jelly on 21/10/2022 16:19:53

Split post because too long

Society, People, Money, Law are all part of the real world, and they inevitably pose problems which are much more complicated and intractable than mere physical phenomena.

"In general, people are averse to risk", and "Society as a whole is bad at discussing the concept of acceptable/tolerable risk" both hold true about as strongly as the Laws of Thermodynamics at the present moment, and I can't see any sign of that changing in my life time.

So the fact that we have societally imposed limitations, (usually as a reaction to the errant behaviour of others in the past) is in my mind just part of the design landscape...

Edited By Jelly on 21/10/2022 16:10:39

I don't doubt that it does, my whole point was that compared to silver soldering, there's a lot of additional nuance to what makes a good or bad weld, so it's not unreasonable that the code (which is agreed with the insurers) insists on an increased level of scrutiny of the process.

I am entirely unsurprised that the stainless boilers you have built worked out so well, and I'd be interested to learn more about the design options it offered you over "traditional" methods.

Out of curiosity, do you mind me asking why stainless over carbon/alloy steel, was it just the corrosion / water treatment aspects or was there more to it?

My point around lifecycle fatigue and corrosion cracking is that (and it's probably more common or at least has happened more often with carbon steels than any other material) is that weld defects (or even just poorly executed welding processes) can introduce unintended failure modes, by deviating from the design intent.

The Alexander L Kielland disaster is a particularly good example: a badly executed non-load-bearing 6mm plate to pipe fillet weld, caused a stress concentration in the structural member to which the weld, this in turn created fatigue cracking in the structural member, which in time snapped the oil rig in half, capsizing it and killing 123 people; whilst the investigation found the lack of structural redundancy was a major factor in the disaster, it was also made clear that had the weld been executed properly, the rig would have functioned as designed and not snapped in half...Despite the fact that as a non-load-bearing joint to hold a bolt that secured a sonar transciever no one at the yard which built her thought the weld mattered.

Your comment about it not being preferred to use TIG for boiler plate, whilst that's generally held to be "the best" process for stainless only serves to further illustrate the relative complexity that welding introduces relative compared to soldered construction.

That complexity is not a bad thing, it is just something which needs to be managed.

I was specifically referring to the fact that if you use rods intended for welding Oxygen Free Copper to weld Phosphorous Deoxidised Copper, the lack of a deoxidant additive in the rods will result in embrittlement or even porosity.

And if you bring hard-pitch copper base metal into the equation (which is still used in full-size heritage steam, and other niche applications) instead of de-oxidised or oxygen free copper, then you find yourself having to Oxy-Fuel weld with a very specific flame condition (I think MMA/Arc is also technically feasible but I've never known it to be done.)

Edited By Jelly on 21/10/2022 16:10:05

In fairness, I wasn't explicitly thinking of copper when I wrote that but of low-carbon steel and stainless steel, which are the de-facto materials for any welded pressure vessel design in my professional life.

I'm more than willing to accept that copper has it's own specific faults and modes of failure.

(Although I can't actually see why you would choose to use it in a welded boiler given the high cost, high weight, reduced tensile strength, reduced operating temperature envelope, worse long-term fatigue properties, and more challenging welding procedures compared to steel).

It's also notable that incorrect parent metal selection, or inappropriate consumables (for welding of phosphorous bearing copper) can cause oxidation, and/or HAZ related defects which do result in rapid-fatigue faults...

Just like joint design, those factors shouldn't be an issue if the constructor is competent, which is why validating that by having them explain/document decisions for review by another competent person is important.

This is why welder certification (be it formally, or informally) is so important, validating the skills and knowledge of the welder creates a chain of trust that they're both

• able to recognise when they're including a defect in a weld, and
• that they will rectify it or raise the issue pro-actively rather than let it slide.

100% and Intermittent NDT are additional "Layers of Protection", not a replacement for keystones like technical competence, or the application of experience and judgement in a visual inspection.

But they only address one sub-set of the potential issues.

A boiler which holds pressure when it's first tested, but after 30 firings, will suddenly fail catastrophically due to fatigue, is every bit as unsafe as one which goes "pop" during it's hydraulic test.

IMO blaming bureaucracy is a cop out, engineering is at its core applying science to solve problems within a set of constraints.

Legislation, Regulation, Insurance and Liability are all important constraints, which modern engineers have to work with, and frequently act as drivers for (not limits to) innovation.

Club Inspectors (as a general class of people, not as a criticism of any one person who is volunteering out of the goodness of their heart) being either unwilling or unable to up-skill to meet the challenges of welded boiler construction and assessing novel designs sounds like a much more significant limitation.

Respecting that they are all volunteers, the question then becomes how do clubs and the community as a whole find, attract and retain people who have the right transferable skills to help meet those new challenges?

Edited By Jelly on 21/10/2022 12:32:44

Edited By Jelly on 21/10/2022 12:35:02

I've grabbed a photo of mine when I was swapping chucks last night.

There's a rotating lock ring with a "backward 6" shaped hole which allows me to pass the studs through complete with their nuts. It becomes free to rotate with only minimal loosening of the nuts.

It you don't have the lock ring, but it bolts up from the rear then it's a non-standard implementation as DIN 55028 / BS4442 Part 1 / ISO R702 Part 1 nose, bolts up from the front with cap-screws.

(Side note R702-1 isn't designed with chuck changes in mind anyway as it's generally specified for holding chucks on Turret Lathes [and these days CNC "Swiss" lathes] with a bar-feeder, where you'd never actually remove the chuck.)

VFD and 3 Phase motor (uprate the power of you need high torque at low motor speeds) is the standard solution, it should be fine on a generator supply (in fact it's easier on the genny than a direct starting single phase motor)

Or fixed speed motor (of any type) and a CVT.

Given your interest in salvaging things it would be interesting to see the CVT from a Quad or Snow-Mobile used to give a lathe stepless speed control with no loss of torque. It's definitely unduly hard compared to just using a VFD, but would be an interesting approach with its own advantages.

Got that motor shaft turned and fitted up, most of the difficulty being in working out the correct length to put the shoulders at with no original part to copy.

All being well I should be able to cut a keyway and re-wire to yield a working bandsaw for at most a few hours effort.

I also noted that the oil in the lubrication watch glasses for the lathe spindle looked like it was overdue a change, then immediately regretted this observation when I discovered how expensive Shell Morlina S2 BL5 (yes, ISO 5 viscosity grade) is.

I am sure when I drain the oil I will be glad I replaced it on seeing the condition it's in.

It's quite easy to make a weld which visually looks good but conceals a defect which makes it susceptible to rapid fatigue once in service.

Without NDT, the only person who can detect that is the welder who makes the weld (if they're knowledgeable/skilled enough to understand).

Consequently either detailed testing of the workpiece or validation of the skill of the welder is required.

As compared to the level of scrutiny that welded pressure vessels in industry come under, the model engineering approach to welding seems entirely proportionate.

Are you looking for a spanner to release the spindle nose itself, or to release chucks from the spindle?

My experience of the bayonet-type (DIN 55027) spindle noses has been that they're invariably machined into the spindle with the bayonet lock-ring slid over the spindle during assembly and permanently captive.

Releasing the chucks should only need a normal spanner to undo the bolts and the ring should then freely rotate to allow you to take the chuck off the taper (maybe with a tap with the leather hammer, if it's on particularly tightly).

This suggests that there is an opportunity to engage with a company like TWI who charges for the Assessor's time by the day (or a local college who are open minded) rather than per candidate.

That could allow a group of interested model engineers go take their weld-test together (like colleagues would in a manufacturing environment) to keep costs manageable.