Member postings for Jerry Wray

Although the issues surrounding heating, lighting, size and planning may be significant it might not be readily apparent that concrete, even after complete curing for some years is terrifically alkaline. I had a garage in Kent built of pre-cast concrete blocks which I used for storage and as a small workshop. When I came to move all the tools which I had stored but not used in the six years of occupation had heavy accumulations of rust.

I borrowed both moisture meter and the kit for measuring airborne pollutants and found that in the spring of 2003 the moisture over a 4 week period averaged ~8% but the airborne inorganic salts were off the scale. (>2.5%).Measurements made with the door closed of course, only opener intermittently during the previous winter.

20 years before that I lived on a narrow boat and stored most of the same tools on that with no problem.

It may be worth looking at the efflorescence on the concrete blocks

Hi Bill,

The Myford you twiddled in Sarjents might have been mine.

Sarjents were an excellent business, but once they moved down to the river they seemed to fall apart very speedily.

I still have most of the tools I bought there still being used, I always look at the boxed set of Dormer drills I acquired, the box was much better than those used today. Although the smaller sizes are not original (1967) the larger ones 6mm and above have been sharpened several times.

There was nothing like seeing the item you were investing in, but the concept of investing in tools has long gone.

Where I live now in the North Midlans there is a small tool dealer who stocks most things, has knowledgeable staff and will order in anything he has not got. No lathes tho'

Jerry

You could always give a British manufacturer your business. Especially as they are local to me!

Look at the range they produce **LINK**

JerryNotts

Let me first of all say that John and I sing from the same song sheet about neat oils., I use ILOCUT from Castrol. I buy a small 20 litre keg from an industrial supplier.

Just to give you a feel for the background to the HSE advice and to save everyone having to read the papers on their website, some 10 years ago there was a serious outbreak of problems at a very large water mix coolant (suds) user in the Midlands. The HSE looked long and hard at that site but it closed before any of the work at the HSE Lab. could be implemented. Around that time I was working for a company undergoing expansion to even larger capacity machines.

The metalworking fluids used in industry serve not only to lubricate but also to cool the tool so the ability of water to carry away enormous amounts of heat is important. Using neat oils in production is not really on as the higher fluid viscosities require much more powerful pumps to supply flooding quantities. The water mix fluids are used at 60cP or thereabouts, whereas neat oils are around 25cSt.

The machines were able to cope with aerospace quality and had coolant capacities around 20-50 tonnes (20,000 - 50,000 litres per machine. Even on the smaller existing machines the smell in the shop was disgusting, using a conventional coolant additive.

I committed to improving the hygiene for the operators and took on a full scale evaluation both of suitable coolants and skin protection. .An additional problem occurred on some of the alloys being machined, staining, which while not a functional problem was definitely not a good advertisement for our work. After about 3 years of fairly intensive work I was able to adopt a system using a particular product which overcame all the difficulties which had become apparent. Although expensive in first cost of the coolant it could be used at lower addition levels and careful control of concentration ~5% on the gauge was worthwhile. A lesson I re-learned was that the cheapest coolants were false economy, especially where the resultant outcome is important.

As the use of any type of glove is not a good idea around rotating machinery a suitable protective cream and effective hand cleanser formed part of the work.

For what it's worth I shall stick to my Ilocut, even though it's a lot more expensive.

Jerry

I do not intend to query the chemistry. I just want to give some simple advice about how to deal with the potential outbreak of fire due to oxidation reactions.

There are 2 main recommendations in facilities where sprinkler systems are not available.

All rags, especially those contaminated with paint, varnish etc. should be placed in a bucket or other suitable receptacle and covered with water, thus excluding the air from contact with the contaminant.

Keep a foam extinguisher handy, messy when used but easier to clean-up than the residue from a fire. Do not use CO2 in a confined space.

DAHIK.

Jerry

Hi Trevorh, and Thor,

I took delivery of a new Warco GH1322 metric lathe a few weeks before Christmas. I was flummoxed by the thread dial at first but reading the related Grizzly manual was very useful to me. I have not read the Grizzly manual for your machine, which may well be different.

My thread dial has facilities to engage in 3 different positions dependent on which leadscrew and gear configuration is provided. The machine is also equipped with a 127T gear which only appeared after I had turned upside down the kit which came with it.

The Grizzly relevant manual makes all the difference.

Jerry

Hi Allen,

Most chemistry labs. used to be equipped with a 'cork softener', I have not seen one for years, but as far as I know chemistry labs no longer use corks.

The softener comprised of two serrated wheels the centre of the small being offset from that of the larger.

By putting the cork into the largest opening and turning with quite some force the cork was squeezed. On removing the cork it was surprising how small a hole it would fit.

Jerry

Hi, Oompa Lumpa and Jason Udall,

Sorry for causing confusion.

I think we are at cross purposes here, I had intended to address the issue of what the fumes related to, HCl gas is definitely a gas. Perhaps I should taken more notice of the 'battery' acid.

I concur entirely with the Hydrogen evolution from H2SO4.

JerryNotts

Sulphur to Sulfur: ask the IUPAC naming committee of a few years ago. When I read chemistry I recall the Profs insistence on using ph. It was one of his pet hates. I employ a recent chemistry graduate who wrote a report for me using the 'modern' spelling which led me to check with my information scientist, (MRSC) who confirmed how it came about. These Americans get everywhere, even into China.

Sorry Oompa Lumpa,

but it's hydrochloric acid gas. (fumes)

Hydrogen Chloride (HCl) is a colourless gas with an irritating pungent odour detectable at ~0.8 ppm. It is very soluble in water (673 g L^-1 at 30°C) (Gangolli, 1999)

And from US NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards,

Synonyms & Trade Names

Anhydrous hydrogen chloride; Aqueous hydrogen chloride (i.e., Hydrochloric acid, Muriatic acid) [Note: Often used in an aqueous solution.]

CAS No: 7647-01-0

I suggest users and potential users look at the UK Health Protection Agency reference at:

**LINK**

JerryNotts

The UK HSE has just published revised guidance on Metalworking Fluids. The items give some illustrations of what has occurred in industrial practice. You might find it interesting.

.**LINK**

I am aware that many people will say that this does not concern the model engineer, but the small scale and intermittent use that often occurs can of itself lead to similar problems.

I am not for a moment suggesting that we should all rush out to our workshops and implement drastic control measures but we should all be aware of the indications of potential problems which might occur.

JerryNotts

I have a Tormek,

Its everything they claim, I have not yet found a drill over 6mm which it cannot sharpen with 4 facets, but below that size it can be problematic, 2 facets no problem but getting equal length when doing 4 needs considerable care. But it , does all the garden equipment, kitchen knives, scissors etc. etc... A lot of money though.

There is an active support forum, mainly focussed on woodturning but very friendly and helpful.

The main thing I have against it is the need to clean out the cooling water tray at the end of every session. I am using the original stone which seems to be soft and absorbs a lot of water. Wear is rather more than I expected, but I have never had sharper edges than it gives. And I mean Never. (60+ years) Those edges are durable, typically 6 months for a kitchen knife which needed re sharpening on a steel every week or two.

Cheers,

JerryNotts

Has Clive considered the conditions under which much of this technology was gathered? WWII had just ended, the Allies scoured the defeated Axis caches of documents to garner as much information as they could. You will be aware that the '4 Powers' kept their finds to themselves.

The searchers worked in closely guarded secrecy, always with the fear of the Soviets who could have taken possession of everything found in Eastern Germany, which at that time included Berlin.

I have been privileged to have seen some of the material gathered in its original form in my area of experience, before it was publicly available. Although the general direction of development was similar to that of the Allies some of the detail was novel and found later to be of value to us.

We should not run away with the thought that that Britain and America were far ahead at that time, After all the Germans might have developed 'the Bomb' first had it not been for the destruction of the heavy water plant in Norway.

JerryNotts

I get mine, sets from Warco or separately from Axminster.. Both work well in my VMC.

JerryNotts

These are the kiddies, give them a try, you might get a sample quantity if you are lucky.

**LINK**

They produce some of the most sophisticated coating systems that exist.

JerryNotts

David,

What do you mean by a large dehumidifier? My garagve workshop is about 20'x10'

JerryNotts

You might try Alec Tiranti, in Thatcham, they supply all sorts of moulding materials, including rubber mould making products.

Their main market is craft supplies but they have all sorts of useful non-engineering things

Their website is **LINK**

JerryNotts

Perhaps I should have emphasised the message contained in the links I referred to earlier in relation to water borne cutting fluids.

If it smells of anything other than a mild oily aroma the fluid has 'gone off' and should be discarded, the reservoir thoroughly cleaned, not just a water flush, but employing the process recommended by the manufacturer.

It should be noted that as far as I know no machine tool manufacturer has ever supplied a fluid of his own manufacture. The chemical industry is plagued by 're-labelling' .

As to the ideas surrounding the addition of biocides, such as bleach, to coolant I think you will find that is deprecated by the manufacturers and I would not be surprised that any suggestion of a claim of health due to fluid which has been dosed with anything other than the manufacturers approved additives would be rejected.

Fluid manufacturers have always employed formulators and R&D staff to help develop their products: even with the best of resources companies across the World have found this a challenge, and progress is ongoing.

JerryNotts

I feel I should add a few lines on the subject of coolant/lubricants for machining based on my own work on the chemistry of these.

Not all maching fluids are alike. There are a multitude of formulations out there. Of course some are only available as 200 litre drums and so rarely accessible to the small user.

Firstly neat oils, these have the much longer history and are well understood for their designed purposes. They are the only type to perform well on grinding machines. Surface grinders are very sensitive to the type used.

Secondly so-called suds,these are not actually soluble oils, but often an oil-in-water emulsion, sometimes water-in-oil. Many more formulations exist especially over the last 10 years or so as chemists look at ways of overcoming the deterioration of mixed fluid in the tank. Other problems associated with these fluids are, as mentioned in earlier posts, staining of metal surfaces and most drastic of all, health problems which develop as the fluid ages.

Those health problems can be severe, in one large Midlands plant, now closed, a high proportion of the workforce developed lung problems which lead to the intervention of HSE and was attributed to poor fluid maintenance. There is guidance available **LINK**. and also **LINK** which points to specifics.

There are recently available fluids supplied as concentrates for mixing with water which have shown experimentally and in small and mid-scale practice to be less prone to deterioration.

As this is a topic in which I have a special interest may I ask contributors to be more specific when referring to the fluids they use and the problems which they experience.

Thank you

JerryNotts

Some weeks ago I mentioned that I had ordered a new lathe, Warco 280v-F.

Some days later a ordered a new VMC mill, which has now arrived and has been positioned, but I am still awaiting the lathe.

Pictures of the VMC are in my album.Luckily the flooring joists took the load.

JerryNotts

Cyril provided a link to as site discussing this subject.

One of the posters there mentioned muratic acid as if this is some arcane product of the alchemist's art.

Muratic acid = hydrochloric acid. It's a synonym. Now hardly used. There's enough attempts to disguise the real properties of chemicals without resorting to ancient history.

JerryNotts