Member postings for Dave Sawdon 1

I need to remove and dismantle the apron on my new-to-me 254S and would welcome any words of advice before I start.

Also, is there a manual for the 254 available anywhere on-line? My google-fu has failed me.

Dave

Mission accomplished - and hubris did not lead to nemesis

In case it's of use to anyone, I:

• removed both quill drives so the head could be laid on the right side
• removed the front panel, z scale, hinged cover and cover clip, safety guard, and rotation stop
• rotated the head to horizontal
• strapped 2 ladders together to form a bridge, strapped the head to the bridge with cam buckle straps, lowered the z so it was hung from the bridge, walked the bridge away from the mill, and lowered the head onto blocks on an old wheeled trolley
• set a work surface next to the x-axis table and just below it, removed the lead screw, removed the DRO scale and rubber cover, slid the table onto the work surface using lengths of dowel as rollers, then slid the table down a plank and on to a trolley
• removed the y axis scale and lead screw, unbolted the y axis nut, slid the saddle off the front
• unbolted the base from the stand, removed the DRO, bolted a short metal bar across the stub that takes the head (to stop a strap from falling-off), strapped the boss to the ladder "bridge", wound-down the z axis and this lifted the column and base off the stand
• slid the stand out of the way and lowered the column+base onto a trolley using z axis movement and cam action straps
• move everything to new location, apply lots of oil and reverse the process - except it was possible to lift the head onto the table. The tricky bit was aligning the three head bolts when getting it back together, it would have been much easier if I'd used a long bolt through the central hole. rather than using the 3 axes to get things aligned.

I apologise for the poor write-up but I wanted to show how one person can do it without a crane and without any scary moments. Some respondents seemed to think it would be complicated but it's a simple job and probably took about 5 hours from start to finish, but spread over a couple of days. The only realignment needed is tramming the head. Adjusting the gibs was trivial and the table and saddle now move far more smoothly than when supplied. (BTW, the "old wheeled trolley" is a decrepit pram base that was in a shed when we moved-in to this house)

The head (without quill drives or z scale): 42kg
Saddle: 15kg
X-axis table 48kg
Leads crews and odds'n'sods

Both nuts are cast iron and the Y-axis nut was very badly made, with holes in the casting. I contacted Warco to get a replacement but they said that I would have to pay because the machine was 2 years old (despite it being a manufacturing defect), that there would be a 12-18 week lead time because they don't hold them in stock, and that most of the nuts were in the same condition so a replacement might be the same. All three of these statements was surprising. I had the idea that Warco ensured the quality of the machines they sold but, having seen the quality of the wiring in the control box and this axis nut, I have my doubts. The nut was usable so I refitted it and will make a "proper" one if it ever needs replacing (unlikely, with my very rare usage).

Edited to add: I forgot to say that the scraping of the ways was "interesting" and not like anything I've seen before on old English machines. A token effort, and mainly to correct a minor casting problem, methinks.

I'm happy to go into more detail on any of this if anyone needs it. Photos available if needed.

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 16/09/2022 21:21:22

Thanks Stuart, Tomek suggested the same thing. I'll probably make a wooden "something" to hold the head.

Unfortunately I don't have any way to lift the mill in one piece, and wouldn't get a trolley through the shed door, so dismantling and using the sack truck will be the way. It will give me an opportunity to inspect, clean and lube all the ways, so not altogether a bad thing.

If I survive the experience I'll report back in case it helps someone - probably in a couple of weeks.

Meanwhile, if there's anyone in the N of Herefordshire who feels like helping ... ?

Dave

Maurice: I agree, but sometimes the best solution isn't feasible. I've removed and moved many things with rollers, pry bars, straps, blocks, and cranes (even, back in student days, a Morris Minor engine with a long piece of wood, some rope, and a pal). The last thing I moved was a Tom Senior M1 mill - pry bar, blocks, trolley jack, pipe rollers and a few straps did the job. When I moved the 1500kg C10 I hired toe jacks and machine skates, but that was on a hard surface.

Bazyle: thanks for the concern but I don't think anyone has suggested lifting the entire mill. The whole mill weighs 230kg and, as I said, my guesstimate of how this will break down is: head 50kg, table 50kg, saddle 30kg, column+base 80kg, odds'n'sods 20kg. I can readily carry 25kg bags of sand or cement (and still remember the 50kg, I think, bags!!) but don't intend to carry any of the items. There will be an overhead "thing" from which the parts will be suspended and lowered. Yes, inclined planes are wonderful things (even for narrow boats) but won't be necessary in this case.

I recall a light aviation accident report where the mishap pilot put down "nemesis resulting from hubris" as the cause - I hope I'm not heading in the same direction

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 26/08/2022 19:28:25

Thanks again for the advice.

I'm doing this to separate woodworking from metal working - all the metalwork (lathe, mill, welding) stuff is going into the shed while woodworking stays in the garage. I've even sold my mighty Holbrook C10 because I can't move it to the shed, so I'm looking for a smaller lathe to replace it. Now I need to sell my rarely-used Denford Starmill CNC mill and Denford Starturn 4 CNC lathe - where's the best place to advertise them (apart from feebay)?

Dave

Thanks chaps (Stuart, Clive and Tomek), that's all useful information.

I'm going to have to do most of this single-handed so need to plan carefully. It's just occurred to me that I can use a 3-part decorating ladder as a bridge to suspend the head and other things from, it's designed for walking on so should be good for 90kg or so. Once suspended and detached I should be able to lower the bits onto a sack truck or wheelbarrow. Thanks, Tomek, for suggesting rotating the head - I hadn't thought of that.

From what I've read, the presence of the gas strut means it's best to keep the column attached to the base. Having thought of using the decorating ladder I think I'll take the base+column off the stand once I've got the table, saddle and head off.

If the whole thing (sans stand) weighs 230kg then is it reasonable to guesstimate the following distribution: head 50kg, table 50kg, saddle 30kg, column+base 80kg, odds'n'sods 20kg ... ?

Sliding the table out is a bit worrying because of the potential for damage just before it comes out of the dovetail. I may try to set-up a table for it to slide onto. What have others done?

Edited to reply to SOD (Dave): The whole thing is supposedly 230kg, hence my guessed distribution. If you're correct and the spec weight is wrong then I need to rethink.

FYI I'm in Herefordshire.

Dave

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 26/08/2022 15:25:08

I need to move my stand-mounted WM18B (from a garage, across some distance of sloping grass to a shed) so plan to remove the table to reduce the weight. I will lower the head but don't have a crane so probably can't remove it.

Is anyone here able to answer the following questions?

• the weight of the machine is 230kg, but what does the stand weigh?
• the weight of the table?
• whether there are tricks to removing or replacing the table?
• the weight of the head? and
• whether there are any tricks to removing or replacing the head?

Mr Google hasn't been able to answer these

Steve D: I'm not really qualified to comment from a position of deep knowledge. Although I had a Tom Senior mill for many years I didn't do a lot with it and my only formal training was a small amount of time on a Bridgeport during graduate induction (almost a lifetime ago) and a short course at Axminster. I have an English lathe (a Holbrook) and this is my first experience of Chinese machine tools.
I chose the 18B because I wanted the longer stroke and higher speed so I could use it for woodwork as well as metalwork, and to replace my Viceroy pillar drill and so get a bit more space in the workshop - having got the mill installed I think I'll hang on to the pillar drill for a while. I also wanted the longer table so that a vice could live on one end, but even with the gib slackened the X movement is quite stiff so some sort of power feed would be beneficial. The column is reasonably easy to wind up and down (a fast-acting power feed would be a very useful addition, though) but goes slightly tight at the top of its travel. The belt change is slightly disappointing: loosen a large screw, hit the motor base with a soft hammer to get it to swivel, move the belt, hit the motor base again and tighten the screw - it would have been trivially easy to engineer a little over-centre catch-come-tensioner. I've been wondering how the motor case got a small ding but now suspect it was hammered with a regular hammer while tensioning the belt, rather than tapping the base.
I can't recall whether I've mentioned the stand before - it's very good and a worthwhile purchase, unlike the trolley.
I've documented the other problems earlier in the thread. I can't fault the response of Warco staff but detailed quality control appears to be non-existent, or to need improvement. The manufacturer provides a "test record" with a list of ticked inspection items and 7 measurement items, all of which are just inside the stated limit, but this is the manufacturer assessing their own output. I would have happily paid a premium for an independent inspection but this was not possible.

mechman48: thanks for the warning but my profession was electronic engineering so, although it's quite a few years since I was involved with hands-on design, electrickery holds no fears for me. Regarding shorting of power capacitors - potentially (pun intended) this can be quite dangerous. Applying a dead short brings the risk of shock, a loud bang, and damage to the cap so use a power resistor of about 1kohms (suitably insulated) and insulated leads. For large caps the voltage will return after a while so leave the resistor connected.

David Holloway 5: eBay item number EDIT Deleted see CofC  is tempting, is this similar to the one you bought?

I haven't used a power feed since doing a short course on a Bridgeport 35+ years ago. I presume the type with a bevel gear (and appear to hang off the lead screw) don't have clutches, so do they cause a lot of drag when the table is moved manually?

Edited to say: On reflection, the sort of power feed with a bevel gear probably hangs down too far for a WM18B

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 10/11/2020 14:30:17

Edited By JasonB on 10/11/2020 14:51:12

Well, adding two machine feet on box section stiffeners didn't stop the wobble so the machine is standing on the feet, the trolley is going back to Warco, and I'll have to devise some sort of jacking trolley if (when!) I need to move it.

The cure for the "micro feed dial" rubbing on the panel and loosing its reference was to remove the handle and worm shaft (retained by a pin in the side of the head that can be pulled-out with a 4mm screw) and to drill a new dimple for the handle grub screw to run into, a few mm nearer the end of the shaft than the original one. Suggested by one of the helpful chaps at Warco, and trivial to do ... but it really shouldn't be necessary.

Now I'm finding that the keyless chuck needs a spanner and a strap wrench to undo it ... 'not sure that this is an improvement over using a chuck key :-|

ChrisH mentioned the Grizzly manuals. The trick seems to be to look through their product range for something that looks a bit like the machine of interest, the manual can then be downloaded from the product page.

Robert A2: thanks for the hint about earthing. Low current continuity is OK but I'll do a physical check when I have time.

I recently bought a Warco WM18B and am now wondering about power feed for the table and (maybe) the column.

The Warco price for a power table feed is over £350, which seems rather OTT for a motor, speed control and attachments. I'd prefer not to spend weeks designing and making something, but are there any other options? I think most use would be for quickly moving the table between regions (it's quite a long table), rather than during milling, so something quite crude would probably do.

I don't think a power raise/lower is available for the column, but it would be a useful addition.

Thanks for all the replies - more than I'd expected and I now have a few less unknown unknowns . In particular, I hadn't heard of the Huffam type so will look for a good used one to buy. In the meanwhile I'll stick with using the split cylinder type (and occasional paper and pin).

Several types are available including: electronic (capacitive?), wigglers, and split cylinders. Which do you prefer, and why?

C Enforcer: thanks for those links. I'm likely to have some specific questions on the DRO (currently trying to fathom the sections on segmented error compensation, finding mechanical origin, and linear error compensation ... maybe a good sleep will help because the Chinglish looks all Greek to me at the moment), is this the best place to ask or is there a specific thread that I haven't spotted for DRO questions?

SO Duffer: I can recognise good advice when I see it, but I do need (*want*) to check the DRO set-up and to tram the head.

Bill P: The basic translation has already been done so it just needs a native English speaker, who has a knowledge of how to use the item, to correct the grammar and word choice so that the manual reads correctly; the machine manual would take a couple of hours and the DRO manual might take a day. That's a small investment to improve the company image and customer experience. If I was reselling these things I would not dream of sending out documentation that was poor, partly unintelligible, and unbranded.

Bo'sun: I agree about customer service. Rob sent replacement parts without quibble, these arrived today and have already been fitted. I've now found that the "micro feed dial" rubs on the panel when downfeeding and so looses its reference - 'not sure what the cause or cure are yet.

I've been experimenting with the trolley. With wooden wedges hammered underneath the edges the rocking is virtually (but not adequately) eliminated so I think this confirms my suspicion that it's the trolley feet that are at fault. I'm going to attach some 3mm box section so I can fit a couple of jacking machine feet and see whether that can be a permanent solution.

From a few web searches it looks like an earlier version of the trolley had fixed feet and jacking wheels - in principle that's a far better design and I wonder why it was changed. I need to decide whether to ditch the trolley entirely, modify the trolley, or make something. If only I had a skyhook to lift the mill on

The Chinglish is surprising for two reasons:

• the major markets are (presumably) either China or the English-speaking world - so getting a good English translation would improve the customer experience and help marketing
• it would not take much effort for a major reseller (such as Warco) to produce good English-language manuals that are branded - once again improving the customer experience, helping with marketing and differentiation. The current approach seems rather short-sighted and lacking in imagination.

That's the same version that came with the machine (but thanks for the link because it's useful to have a downloaded copy). Am I the only one that finds this manual virtually unintelligible, or is it down to my lack of familiarity with DROs?

Some thoughts having recently received a WM18B with DRO, stand, and (700 lb) wheeled trolley.

A visit to the Warco showroom and subsequent communication was all well handled by friendly staff. I made a couple of changes to the order but they dealt with those well. The pallet was delivered by a helpful chap on the promised day.

Challenge #1 was opening the crate. Warco had lifted the top of the crate off the base but re-attached it using the original nails - life would have been much easier if they'd used screws.

Challenge #2 was assembling the trolley without instructions and only a small diagram to work from - it's easy with hindsight but needed some head scratching.

Challenge #3 was attaching the base to the trolley. It's a general purpose trolley so does not have any provision for bolting the base to it. I improvised using some unused bars from the trolley, but there should really be an adapter or coupling kit specifically for the task - more about the trolley later.

Challenge #4 was getting the mill on the stand single-handed. The mill was was bolted to the bottom of the crate, which had been strapped to a pallet. Unfortunately the pallet was much wider than the crate base and would not fit between the legs of the hired engine crane. Eventually I set-up boards across the top of the crane legs and slid (much crowbar action) the crate base from the pallet to the boards and could then lift the mill with the crane. Slightly scary moments getting the mill high enough but it worked-out. The correct size bolts for the mill-stand attachment are not supplied so I used the smaller bolts that had been used to attach the mill to the crate (why don't they use the correct size?)

Observation #1: the trolley is very poorly designed. It's useful to be able to move the thing around but the feet are attached to plastic arms which flex easily, so the mill wobbles when it should be sat firmly on the floor. It would be so much better to have the fixed feet rigidly attached to the frame and the wheels on a jacking system because a little wobble doesn't matter on the rare times the thing has to be moved. I'm waiting for a response to Warco on my feedback that the thing is not fit for purpose.

Observation #2: the bracket holding the safety guard had broken - it looks very flimsy but they say a failure is unusual. A replacement is in the post.

Observation #3: the on/off and stop switches were loose. Having removed the panel, the on/off switch had been incorrectly attached (and the connections were not tight so one wire fell out) and the stop switch nut hadn't been fully tightened - neither of these had any provision to stop them rotating, such as a keyhole or hot-melt. As a professional engineer it was easy to fix, but it shouldn't have been necessary. Inside the panel it looked like a good DIY assembly, rather than a production unit.

Observation #4: Initially, neither the R8 reducer nor the collet chuck would enter the spindle because the guide pin in the spindle was larger than the slots in the chuck and reducer. The slot in the drilling arbor (that was supplied fitted in the mill) is much wider than the slots in the reducer and chuck.

Observation #5: I'm surprised that Warco haven't corrected the Chinglish in the manuals, especially for the Sino DRO. It wouldn't take very long to do it and would hugely improve the customer experience. Also, the mill manual refers to WM18B on the front page but thereafter has WMD30VB, which gives the game away - I'm surprised they don't want to customise the manual. Has anyone got an understandable version of the SDS2-3MS instructions?

I haven't checked the mechanical accuracy or set-up (partly because I haven't yet educated myself on how to do it - all advice gratefully received) but it's been used for a simple milling job and was enjoyable to use. It would have been used for some drilling if they hadn't sent the wrong chuck (an exchange is in the post).

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 02/11/2020 19:46:28

Edited By Dave Sawdon 1 on 02/11/2020 19:47:36

Thanks for the quick responses. I think I'll advertise the larger ones and keep the others for a while to see whether they get called-upon.

I've recently sold a horizontal mill and will soon have a new vertical mill to play with. I now have a large number of horizontal cutters (side and fence, angle, double angle, slab, concave, convex, involute, slitting, etcetera) to dispose of but, before advertising them, I wondered whether the smaller ones could be used on an arbor in the vertical mill, or whether anyone had found other uses for them. It's clear that the slitting saws can be used, but what about the rest?

I'll try projectorlifiting but I suspect they're going to be a bit pricey

Thanks for the gumtree link but the text says "THE HIAB CAN LIFT 1.2 TONS.AND THE PAYLOAD OF THE TRUCK IS 1.4 TONS" - "she won't take it Cap'n", as Mr Scott might have said