Tender locos for a beginner?

I've just finished a 3.5 Gauge "William" by Martin Evans (someone else started it, I finished it). Other than a few smal stationary engines I'm a novice. I didn't make the boiler but I made all the fittings. I realise you said its not of intrest but certainly consider it, its a lovely locomotive. 

It has a build book, a non-tapered boiler, Is a decent size (about as large as one person can lift safely), and being 3.5 gauge the tracks are more readily available than 2.5 gauge. I can't think of a better choice personally, but I'm biased. As you can see there are still some cosmetic things to do.

Edited By Jon Lawes on 07/11/2020 23:33:13

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rob-Roy-William-Martin-Evans/dp/0852429290

This is the build book.

I'm also building a Britannia at the moment, it is more complex but you only build it one piece at a time, and you can keep going until you get it right. That being said, its years of work.

Also this website lists lots of different steam locomotives you can build, its a wiki site so the info is better for some than others. Full Disclosure; I started the site so again am biased.

https://smalllivesteamengines.fandom.com/wiki/SmallLiveSteamEngines_Wiki

Edited By Jon Lawes on 07/11/2020 23:37:44

That line is in Bedfordshire William and it is normally very popular with G3S members because it has twin running circuits for live steamers and a branch line for the R/C engines to operate on. There are other G3 railways around the country but this one is quite central, so gets people from London, the Midlands and South East. It's also a G3S boiler test site at the beginning of the running season - so I guess those are the reasons it tends to get photographed a lot.

The best way to settle your mind normally, would be to go and look at the different options and try to narrow down what you want out of your hobby. We often have guests who are invited to GTGs and are free to chat to members about their engines and have a drive. Not possible at the moment I'm afraid.

Putting aside the engine choice for a moment - there is another aspect you might want to think about.

Both G1 & G3 hold their GTGs in private gardens which are hosted by the owners. Many Hosts run informal events for local members, as well as the 'official' ones for the wider membership. Hosts generally fund and maintain their own railways, although local members often volunteer to help them out. Membership fees are generally in the order of £20pa or so - because it mainly just has to cover the Newsletter/Journal.

Model Engineering Societies (MES) are located in a specific location and their members are normally fairly local to that place (City/Town/County). They need to have a reasonable plot of land for the track and usually also some kind of club house and storage. Members are expected to help maintain the track, buildings and scenery. The costs of running a site can be considerable, which is either met by the membership or fund-raising - often both.

The N25GA holds 'Rallies' at Host MES (with 2.5" tracks) so is kind of a halfway house - a GTG at a MES if you will.

Membership of a local MES will usually provide access to great facilities and support (assuming that you are reasonably close) but it does come with an expectation that members will also 'contribute' their time and effort back when and as required.

G! and G3 are 'National' in nature and membership doesn't come with quite the same level of overhead but the downside is that you will probably not have free access to track whenever you want or need it (unless you get to know a local Host very well)

If you build in 3.5" or 5" you are essentially going to have to join a MES to run your engine. If you build in G1 you will have garden railways you can visit - and hopefully a local Host who welcomes informal running. In 2.5" you can run at G3 GTG or N25GA Rallies and/or also join a local MES if they have a 2.5" track (But they will tell you you should have built bigger)

In any Society, Association or Club, there are always those who do much of the work and those who (for whatever reason ) are less willing to give their time. This might show as problems getting people to volunteer for the Committee or the fact that it's always the same 'willing horses' that turn up to cut the grass or maintain the track at the MES.

I can't really tell you what loco will give you the most satisfaction (or enjoyment) to build and run - but I can tell you that I think being a member of a MES will probably demand more commitment from you. For many this is a bargain they are delighted to accept (and they are duly rewarded) but not everyone understands this side of the deal in my experience.

Regards,

IanT

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As Ian T has mentioned there are a number of options in 2 1/2 gauge, Many will pull the driver with ease but very few that will " pull a few people. This is as much due to the additional weight and friction of passenger trolleys and adhesive weight as anything. Also part of the reason why 3 1/2 gauge is less popular I personally believe.

If you want to just enjoy driving and pull yourself 2 1/2 is cheaper and lighter than 3 1/2. with the added ability to run on G3 rails if made to the correct specification.

If you want to pull passengers, then people tend to go for 5" as there is relatively speaking little difference in time, materials or costing between 3 1/2 and 5" and the latter will pull significantly more. I feel that is more the case rather than any particular decline in 3 1/2 Gauge

The majority of 2 1/2 gauge designs have construction notes available from the Association www.n25ga.org and you also have a wealth of experience in members of both the Gauge 3 Association and the 2 1/2 gauge Association.

With regard to Silver soldering the boiler, it does need some reasonable investment in the right equipment propane or oxy propane with the relevant torches, regulators and hoses/ blowback arrestors. Also a decent hearth or insulated working area. which ideally needs to be separate from your indoor workshop. It also needs a good deal of practice to get right and puts many people off because of the high cost of material for a copper boiler which has an element of total write off if you get it wrong. That said once you understand the principles of silver soldering and position the heat correctly to promote the necessary capillary action it is a straightforward process.

At a rough estimate, any tender engine in any gauge has say 800 to 1000 individual parts in it not including nuts bolts and rivets. If you make a part a day, every day of the year that's still over two years work. So getting your choice right at this stage is a very wise move. Also the workshop equipment needed for 2 1/2 or G3 is significantly smaller/ lighter than required for 5" or a larger 3 1/2 Gauge engine.

As both a member of G3A and the National 2 /12 gauge Association I have always found help and information in this gauge as plentiful as in any other.

Hope this helps your decision making

William - I understand, coming from a country where the southern neighbours are inch-based. (I live in Canada)

However - for a bit in the '90s I lived in Europe, got a European lathe, and inch materials and BA were just not available where I lived.

I can remember looking at and trying to use this lathe, throwing my hands towards the gods, saying something quite close to "Just what the f(deleted) is a g(deleted) d(deleted) f(deleted)ing millimetre????" (there might have been more expletives thrown in for good measure) I don't normally swear, but, when times call for it...

When I figured it was close to a 10c coin, I managed, and my little Tich with BA fasteners was completed.

Now, living back in Canada, I do *everything* metric - it's so easy, in my opinion. Sure, materials come in inch, but generally one can adapt, especially if things are machined. My current project is a Martin Evans design ("Ivatt" and everything is converted to metric before I machine.

Just my thoughts on a Saturday evening.

Edited By John Alexander Stewart on 08/11/2020 01:09:16

I'd check to see what your nearest track is. No point building something for a gauge which doesn't have local support nearby.

But if you want to run your loco in public you need a boiler test and insurance and the easiest way to get these is through a club.

As a member of two clubs, I cannot recommend joining highly enough.

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 08/11/2020 09:31:00

alan-lloyd, John Alexander Stuart did also recommend the Q1 - I have a feeling for 3-1/2" this might be a winner. Is there a book in the same way there is for lots of other designs? Or am I collating info from ME issues and this forum?

Perko7 - no interest at all in an American 4-4-0 although I do quite like the british (southern) ones!

I don't disagree with you about the value of MES Nick - but my point is that joining a MES often needs more engagement and commitment from a Member than just joining (say) G1MRA. You are expected to get involved and help out (which is not unreasonable of course) but not everyone wants (nor accepts) the need to do that.

It's hard to explain the subtle differences to newcomers but perhaps one example does come to mind.

We (Gauge 3) have had people join the Society and then turn up to just get a boiler test done. We might never see them again but it doesn't seem to really bother anyone. Some very interesting engines have briefly appeared, been appreciated (and tested) before they disappeared from sight once again.

However, I'm pretty sure that some MES would not be very happy for someone to join them just for a boiler test - they have different expectations of their members. Some of those expectations can cause tensions too. I seem to recall that there were some folk who always turned up on maintenance days (to replace track timbers and cut the grass etc) and then some others who only came on running days. I think if you are joining a MES, it comes with more (not got an ideal word for it ) "responsibilities" than the less 'localised' modelling organisations. I'm not saying this is bad, just warning folk that things can be different between the two types of organisation.

It's many years since I was last a MES member. These days, I spend most of my hobby time in my workshop (which is kind of solitary) but that seems to suit me. I have enough on my plate to keep my own garden and home straight without worrying about anything else. When I turn up at a G3 GTG, I don't feel guilty about not helping to mow the lawn that morning, I'm just grateful that my Host has already done so.

It's not about being better or worse - just about there being differences.

Regards,

IanT

Good evening gents, I do apologise for the slightly bizarre reply above, I didn't realise we were on page 2 so I was only replying to the first page.

IanT and RRMBK - I've joined my local MEC which has a large G1 track, raised 2-1/2", 3-1/2" and 5", and ground level 5" and 7 1/4" tracks. I have checked all the MECs in my local area and where I'm looking to move in the next year or so, and all of them have 3-1/2" and 5" tracks.

I get the point however, that the running of a 3-1/2" and 5" loco mandates a MEC membership and the associated anciliary time and expenses to contribute towards having that track available to run on. It is also very interesting re: the comment about 3-1/2" and 5" being effectively the same complexity/cost, just that one is (from a performance perspective) objectively superior.

Jon Lawes , the Martin Evans William is a indeed interesting (my namesake!), I think visually I prefer the Jubliee but with piston valves and a tapered boiler it does seem like it could be a significant step up.

I am really pleased to read a little of the information around the number of parts, time to completion, and relative cost of a given locomotive. Is there also a metric which suggests how much longer a tender locomotive takes compared to a tank? I'm speaking of course of opposite ends of the scale - a G3 4-6-0 against a 5" gauge Pannier or Saddle tank!

We have members who can build a large G3 loco in a year or less William - but I'm not one of them I'm afraid

It's about discipline and focus - and some folk are much better at staying focused and 'on track' than others.

So I'm not the best person to ask about "how long" - but obviously, a tender has six wheels, six axle boxes, frames, plate work (etc) to make before you even start on the engine itself (many folk seem build the tender first). Against this, the smaller engine will tend to be a bit simpler than the larger one.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 08/11/2020 20:32:03

I have to admit that the loco I am building (7 1/4" Tich) is making very slow progress - put it down to a day job and living as a single parent of an autistic daughter of 22 - and I am autistic myself.

But I am having fun!

IanT I was just giving context about scales, I appreciate each has its idiosyncrasies but yes, mainly concerned with the time for tender Vs tank. Presumably incrementally more, rather than half again or double the time?

You mentioned in the first post that this is your first loco. One big advantage of a tender engine is that you can build the tender first which gives you a feel for how you like to work and to what degree of accuracy / realism.

It also normally gives you a ready made boiler test facility with the pump and tank for when you make the boiler.

I suggest that a rough timescale of 1/4 tender , 1/4 boiler and fittings, 1/4 loco chassis and running gear and 1/4 platework, finishing, painting etc is realistic for a tender engine. For a tank engine your plate work will be a bit more but you still have to make the pump, valves and pipework, along with any additional trailing truck and mountings, so its probably realistic to say 1/3 of the total time each for chassis, boiler and platework.

I'm still poring over my options in the larger gauges, but I wanted to ask - is it worth me building the G1MRA project regardless of what comes next? Or in theory is it possible to go straight for G3, 3-1/2", or 5" ?

If you plan to go to the larger gauges William, my advice would be to do exactly that. A Project will take time and some money and unless you plan to stay & model in G1, then I'm not sure there's much point.

You asked about Tender vs Engine build 'proportions' and I think RRMBK has given as good an estimate as is possible. It does depend of course on what you decide to build - and the level of complexity and detail.

Several posts ago, I recommended Martin Evans "Eagle" as a simple 2.5" loco for a beginner - here is my friend Roger's version of it. He built it some years ago and it always runs very well. It's an attractive engine, simple and reliable to run. The tender is fairly basic and the loco has twin outside cylinders and is coal fired.

But if you want something more challenging in G3/2.5" - then you could go for something several steps up in ambition and build something like this rebuilt Merchant Navy class. This engine was shown at a small G3 gathering earlier this year and is really a superb example of what is possible in Gauge 3.

It would certainly make an impressive ornament for your mantlepiece too.

My advice is this - think carefully about what you would really (really) like to build and eventually own.

It's going to take you a lot of time, much devotion and some money whatever that is. So choose something that you will love doing - not what others think you are capable of or need. Then just get on with it - small steps, first foot forward and all that!

Regards,

IanT

Thank you all so much for your kind help and assistance. I think it's important to me to make a locomotive that I personally either have a connection to, or want to see - I just don't have the enthusiasm for a little 0-6-0T no matter how much I want to Based on what's available in drawings and castings, there are really only two locos that are up for consideration for me after a hard reflection - one of the SR 4-4-0's in a larger scale, or a King Arthur in a smaller one.

I have a couple of questions and I think then I'll be well on the way to making a decision.

On the face of it in 2-1/2" Gauge the Don Young "Elaine" seems like it could be a winner - straight boiler and firebox, castings and drawings available from Reeves, etc. - similarly for Eagle. I think my main concern is running it. My (for now) local club has a 2.5" gauge track but I don't know of any others in Sussex/Kent. I'm going to assume at 15' minimum radius running the loco so potentially could have a home track, but I would be mostly dependent on get togethers. How achievable is a coal-fired Elaine or Eagle in 2-1/2" for a first loco? While this is possible, it still seems the least feasible of the options...

In 3-1/2" Gauge Don Young's 2P seems highly lauded and so if I could amend the platework to represent an SR L1 class (spectacle plate, splashers, tender top) it would be a front runner - . I assume converting a 2P to an L1 is aesthetic exterior change, so the chassis/etc. can be built as designed? As a fall back, the Martin Evans William fits in here - probably behind all other options in terms of desire but maybe higher up in practicality.

In 5" Gauge, the two front runners are the LBSC "Maid of Kent" and Martin Evans "Stowe". The MoK with square firebox and inside cylinders as per an SR L1 looks like it is the highly recommended. Are there the corrections available for the MoK inside-cylinder issue? Presumably the Schools would be discouraged due to the internal third cylinder? How much complexity does a third cylinder add when taken in the context of a full loco build?

For both of these locos, can the machining for a 5" SR L1 or Schools be done on an ML7 / vertical slide / drill press, or does it need a larger lathe/mill?

I think that should cover it and give me a very strong pointer.

Edited By William Ayerst on 11/11/2020 12:43:44

Edited By William Ayerst on 11/11/2020 12:46:28

William

It is quite possible to build a large 5" gauge loco on an ML7 and vertical slide, plenty have done it in the past and are probably still doing so, but it is a slow and tedious way of building. I built Rob Roy entirely on one, and most of a 5" Simplex ( the hornblocks and axleboxes were done on a friends mill) but it was painful at times. Before you embark on something like that you have to do a bit of honest heart searching, and work out if you have the patience to complete it, I'm not sure if I could do it now, having been spoiled!

Good luck with your choice it's something you will have to live with for a long time.

Dave

Thank you Dave - I'm not adverse to getting a mill at some point, but as previously mentioned it's one of those things which adds yet a higher cost onto a potential locomotive build. Don Young's writeup of his 3-1/2" 2P speaks only of a vertical slide but presumably there's less shuffling around a limited size of table in the smaller scale?

I have a couple of questions and I think then I'll be well on the way to making a decision.

On the face of it in 2-1/2" Gauge the Don Young "Elaine" seems like it could be a winner - straight boiler and firebox, castings and drawings available from Reeves, etc. - similarly for Eagle. I think my main concern is running it. My (for now) local club has a 2.5" gauge track but I don't know of any others in Sussex/Kent. I'm going to assume at 15' minimum radius running the loco so potentially could have a home track, but I would be mostly dependent on get togethers. How achievable is a coal-fired Elaine or Eagle in 2-1/2" for a first loco? While this is possible, it still seems the least feasible of the options..

Eagle is a straightforward locomotive and all castings are available from the Association at n25ga.org

Elaine is a bit more complex and has some unusual main horns which can be awkward to machine. It also doesn't have an axle pump but two injectors instead, which puts some people off. Drawings and castings are available from Reeves. Don Youngs write up for this is available from the 2 1/2 G Association and is based entirely on using only a lathe and .vertical slide. I am currently building an Elaine but mainly fabricated and intending to incorporate different horns, an axle pump and using todays metric material for frames which requires minor dimension changes. Elaine also gives the option of 6 or 8 wheel tenders and two cab types Urie or Maunsell. If you are considering this option then feel free to PM me.

For 2 1/2 gauge have you considered Ayesha? it is a proven straightforward design with lots of successful builds running around the world, with again the option of 3 different mainline loco designs..It also has a wide firebox which is generally easier to fire than the narrow fireboxes of Elaine and Eagle.