new to myford lathes

hi andy not a problem mate you've been plenty helpful thank you .

kind regards wayne

no problem mate you have been very helpful

kind regards wayne

No worries.

Make sure you let everyone know you get on with it.

Andy.

Hello everyone

the new 25 tooth ml7 tumble gear came today so ive been in the shed all day .and my plan was a success .

first I made a short 3 inch shaft one end 1.3/4 long to fit the bore in the ML4 mandrel which I drilled a 3mm hole in tapped and grub screw to hold it in the mandrel I hade to bore a 1/4 inch deep into the back of the tumbler gear so it just sits on the end of the mandrel . and I then turned the (1.1/4) length of the shaft ,to fit the ML7 tumbler , I used the oil hole in the tumbler gear to tap and put a grub screw in to pinch up on the short shaft .it all lines up with the change wheels now ,and the lead screw now works ,and quite smooth ,it don't sound like a load of nuts and bolt going around in a washing machine the ML7 tumbler as a small collar then a short section that as a w.key,and I can use a ML7 gear if needed and that also lines up with the outer gears , it was a lot of messing about due to the lathe not cutting straight .the cross slide and saddle need setting up it cuts tapered so ive had to allow for this and do light cuts on the thick end of the shaft to take the taper out then use a file to and marker pen to true it up , .ive never set a lathe alignment up before but I guess some one will tell me how to align everything , I hope . I will get a few pictures up as soon as im fully happy with mod . the way its been done its not damaged anything if I ever get original bushes sorted .and remove the front added on bearing because I would then get back the full length of the mandrel .the only thing I have lost by modding is i will be limited on how long the bore of the mandrel is , see how it goes at least the lead screw is functional now ,once ive sorted the issues and im happy I will then strip it and paint it .

thanks to anyone who helped me with info a most of all pictures .

O.K. So I hope you're ready for a mammoth monster post........

The method for setting up the lathe is going to vary, depending on what kit you already have.

If you're serious about using the lathe you're going to need a four jaw chuck anyway. In my opinion you're better off with a four jaw than a three jaw if you only have one chuck. That's not usually the way people think, but if you use a four jaw then you're going to need a dial gauge and magnetic base to go with it.

* Generally, once you get used to it, the four jaw chuck will be nearly as quick to use as the three jaw.

* With the dial gauge it will be much more precise than the three jaw.

* It can hold almost anything within the capacity of the lathe, which the three jaw cannot.

You're going also to need a piece of 1" diameter ground stock. A 13" piece of silver steel is ideal.

1) The first thing you're going to have to sort out is the gibs;

You can forget about the compound slide. You'll need to get he gibs for that right eventually, so you can get a good turned finish. To set up the lathe, you can remove the compound if you want. It doesn't affect anything. Gibs that matter are those on the saddle and the cross slide. The screws for the saddle are over the back, and for the cross slide they're on the right.

What you have to do is adjust and lock each screw to get a minimum of slop (twisting) throughout the whole range of the slide. You need to do this whilst not incurring excessive friction by over-tightening. On a new machine, the gibs will be easy to set. On an old machine, there will probably be some kind of compromise between the range of friction free motion, and the slop in the most used areas of the slide.

The slop will be by the headstock for the saddle, and somewhere in the middle of the cross slide. You can have the slides ground true if you want. A dovetail bed like the ML4 is the most awkward for the professional machinist to grind.

Do the lower slides first. When you do the upper slides, ensure that the lower slides are in the tightest region of their travel. That way you're only trying to eliminate the slop in one slide at a time. Start with the saddle, and when you're happy do the cross slide. If you're going to, do the compound last.

The headstock has three bolts and no dowels. There is a considerable range of movement, so the lathe can naturally turn quite a strong taper. The main bolt is the one below the pulley. It needs to be nipped, but not tight. The other two are below the front main bearing and hang down. These need to be loose.

2) Then it's the headstock adjustment;

You're not going to need power to the headstock for any of this, so make the belt drive loose.

Put the ground bar into the 4 jaw and roughly centre it by eye. There will be a whole length of bar sticking out of the chuck, but that's fine. Don't let the chuck get too tight. Put the dial gauge on the cross slide and move the saddle so that the dial gauge stylus rests on the bar within about 1/2" of the chuck. Accurately centre the bar, without moving the saddle.

Once you have the bar centred close to the chuck, you're going to find that the bar is wagging around, because there is such a length sticking out of the chuck. You're going to have to minimise that, and the only way you can do it, is to use packing between the jaws of the chuck and the ground bar. It's a process of trial and error and it will take a while, but you cannot do to good a job of it. I would recommend various different approaches depending on how accurate your chuck is.

a) If the chuck is good, then the bar will not wag much and I think you will be able to use thin hard packing, like brass or steel shim stock.

b)If the chuck is bad, then the bar will wag a lot, and you may be better off with soft packing like iced lolly sticks.

c)You might find a combination of both works.

Be methodical, get it concentric near the chuck, and then assess the runout at the end of the bar. Use a permanent marker add packing and repeat.

If this all proves too difficult you can get a test bar which is ground all over and has a no. 2 morse taper on the end. You put the test bar directly into the spindle nose and ditch the 4 jaw. This could work out quicker, but it might not work out at all. If the taper is not true in the spindle nose, then you'll never get the bar true to the bearings. With the four jaw and the packing, it will always be possible to achieve truth, but it might take forever to set up.

Don't forget that you don't have to cut anything, so if the truth is accurate but weak due to the use of soft packing, that's O.K.

Once you get the bar true to the bearings, don't put any forces into it. Treat it as precious.

Edited By Andy Ash on 07/05/2016 11:16:56

Only now you can run the dial gauge along the side of the bar by traversing the saddle. The bar does not need to be rotated, and it's probably better if you don't. If the stylus is not quite at centre height, it doesn't matter that much. Just keep the gauge so that the stylus moves in the horizontal plane, fairly close to centre height.

By moving the dial gauge back and forth along the bar, you will observe the misalignment in the headstock. Using, a small lead or brass weight, tap the headstock casting, low down close to it's seating plane. Gradually you will be able to bring the bar parallel with the bed of the lathe. Tighten the (loose) front bolts first. Then the main bolt under the pulley. Check that nothing moved. When you're completely happy that you have alignment, and that nothing can move, you can break the set-up down and see if you can turn parallel.

3) The final task is to set the tailstock true.

You need two centres and a long test bar. The ground bar from the headstock setup would do. You can make the test bar yourself, but you will then need a fixed three point steady. Obviously if you don't mind sacrificing your nice 1" ground bar, then the centres could be drilled into it with a hand drill. Then you don't need the steady.

If the test bar already has accurate centres, then you can just run the dial gauge along it like before. You adjust the screws on the front of the ML4 tailstock to position the offset. Adjust the screws until the dial gauge reads true. Do bear in mind that the adjustment screws and the clamp oppose, so if you tighten the adjustment screws, you'll need to loosen the clamp and vice versa.

Get an initial setting by pointing the centres at each other close to the headstock.

If you don't trust the accuracy of the centres in the test bar, then you can turn a short section of it, with the same cross slide setting at each end of the bar. When the turned diameters measure the same size, the tailstock is aligned.

Setting the tailstock on the ML4 is an iterative process. Because there are two screws to adjust the offset, then it is possible to have the tailstock barrel slanted relative to the bed. If this happens then the offset will be different depending how far out the tailstock barrel is poking.

Once you're accurately centred, you'll need to fully extend the tailstock barrel. You put the dial guage back on the cross slide, and with the saddle run the stylus along the side of the tailstock barrel. This time simply adjust one of the two screws to bring the barrel parallel to the lathe bed.

Obviously, when you do this your original accurate centre will have gone. So you need to do it again. You'll need to go around that loop until you're happy that the tailstock is true to the bed and by inference the headstock bearings.

I hope it doesn't put you off, but that's what you have to do, to bring it right.

Edited By Andy Ash on 07/05/2016 11:21:31

Wow Andy

who could ask for better than that mate you are a diamond .ive restored classic cars /classic guitars ,so im up for a challenge .

ok here goes a list of things I already have .

I have a dial and magnetic stand

a newish 5" 4 jaw independent chuck

a 4" pratt 6 jaw self centring chuck pretty spot on im told

a 15" x 1/2 bar that I got out of a ram (best ive got at the min

a 8" x 1" bar from another ram .

and mics and calipers inside bore gauges a live center

I think a good clean up to start make sure theres no hidden grime that may upset any settings .

Andy again thank you mate , you have ended my hours of searching the net

The six jaw in a nice thing to have. I don't have one. I decided to spend the money on collets.

I'd watch out for the rams especially if they are worn. They have to be straight and round. If they are it's fine, but if they were they would probably be in hydraulic cylinders! I don't know, I'm sure you'll work it out.

The live centre is essential for actual turning operations at the tailstock end. Never trust it for setup. Dead centres are so cheap, just buy a couple and keep at least one in reserve with a really sharp point. Quite often you want to turn between centres, and you will want a dead centre in the headstock end. You can use a tap wrench as a dog, and a bolt projecting from the faceplate as a catch.

The beauty of between centres is you can make several similar items and do each operation in turn. On centres you get very few runout problems even though you are continually swapping the workpiece in and out.

A faceplate is a very useful and very simple thing. Anything you can't do in the four jaw, you can do on the faceplate. I've even had my tailstock mounted on the faceplate before. (It was broken and needed repair)

Edited By Andy Ash on 07/05/2016 16:59:13

Hi Andy

an old mate gave me the 6 jaw when he retired from engineering he offered me his own boxford lathe free but at the time I was healthy and working 24/7 so didn't have the time , .he showed me a scaled down model he made of his 1950s era Norton 650 the detail was out of this world even the brake levers worked .and the 6 jaw was his favourite . on a side note I have Multiple sclerosis that started in my 40s some days I find it hard to think never mind stand or get my hands to grip things ,so I cant work and things are tight at times,so I will get a faceplate and some centres when funds permit .but less of that .ive been up the shed and made a handwheel for the feed screw which I think will help more with checking the full length and smoother operation as my apron hand wheel is not the correct wheel and is quite stiff and jumpy on the rack .I think the whole machine as been bodged up im starting to think about buying another and using one as spares . I was looking at one on ebay that looked complete a clean it went for £65 complete with stand /motor/and shaft and other bits n bobs .but as I tell the wife even a bargin costs money .the rams are quite new long one is from a rowing machine and the other from a hydraulic jack out of my mates boot that was never used. I mostly want a lathe to make air rifle tuning parts .I have already done a few but using my pillar drill as a upright lathe but its time consuming and more manual work to do . again thank you your such a help .

kind regards wayne

Was the £65 ML4 this one? If so I was the person who bought it, i've been trawling threads looking for information about it for the last week, while waiting to collect it.

yes doctor denied that's the one .I was going to bid but it had ended before I had chance .

regards wayne

hello all

I got a super deal today 6 biscuit tins and a small toolbox full of lathe stuff ,a live centre /3 dead centres/12 change gear wheels/ and studs a back gear , a new feed screw handwheel / 4.1/2" backplate /a fixed steady/ a magnetic dti holder / a scribe gauge block/ toolbox full of cutting tools / adjustable reams /books manuals ,something that looks like o die holder but not sure ,gibs saddle or crossslide feedscrews not sure yet ,and other bits ive not gone through it all yet ,but I know 99% is myford stuff , £50 all in ,the cutting tools alone are worth that . plus carbide tips and holders .so now I have plenty of bits I can set my lathe up anything I cant use I will let you know.

cheers wayne

hello all

Well after stripping my ml4 down ready to clean up I have hit a brick wall ,the top slide as got a crack in it caused by the idiot who had it before me who fitted a quick change tool holder but must have stripped the original thread ,so they have forced in a helicoil which as cracked the cast about 1 mm gap by 25 mm long so that's why theres so much play even when adjusted so in effect the slides are wider one end to the other , I didn't notice the crack till I cleaned it up ,so now im on the lookout for a top slide or any suggestions ? I could get the crack welded up but that wouldn't make it parallel it would need to have the heli coil removed then grind the crack heat it up hoping to try and close the gap a little in a vice to get it parallel again then weld it then rethread it ? and I guess wouldn't be cheap to repair .I don't have welding gear now .or I would have done it . anyone got a way around this .im all ears .

regards wayne

I thinking again ,would it work if I added a adjuster to the opposite side of the top slide to take up the slack and wobble out as I feed ?

regards wayne

Wayne - I've got a spare one. Private message sent.

George

Hello George

that was quick mate im interested just let me know.

regards wayne

Hello all I managed to get the spindle out of mine today and its a mess full of grooves and scores , a threaded bar would look better , and it is a taper bearing that's been tack welded to the nose end top of the headstock but only to the top of the journal ? the p/bronze bushes are both there and they both still clamp down on the mandrel the original thrust bearing is missing due to the taper baring being fitted , bit of a bodge job I think .yes I know its a very old lathe and its been (modded) but not very well . the saddle had two of the adjusters snapped off leaving un adjustable stubs so I got them out and made new ones so that's ok now and will be adjustable on all four bolts . the tail stock adjusters were screwed through the front plate and the lock nuts fitted to other side so they didn't work but ok now .lots of silly things that could have been sorted easily .but I think its been just stripped in the past a quick paint over the crud .and that's it im stripping the paint as I go and checking for issues .could the mandrel scores be built back up any way ?

kind regards wayne

Hi Wayne,

I'm guessing that they have only welded the bearing to the top of the casting, so that the adjuster can still be used. If they had welded the outer to both parts of the slitted boss it would have prevented the slot from changing size.

Replacing the gib screws is always good. Make sure the locknut is good too. They'll wind themselves out if they can. Having good slots or even using socket screws can really help get the setting "just right".

The silliest little things make a lot of difference!

I don't know what to say about your headstock. The safest thing is to put it back as it was. The best thing to do is to find a way, to get a proper solution. A single taper roller bearing (if that's what was used to replace the thrust race) is distinctly non-ideal. The scoring alone, you might get away with.

Certainly if there is scoring in the region outside the actual journals then use a stone or a file, to reduce the height, so it cannot damage the bearings further. In the region of the actual journals, as little as possible change to the spindle. On the up side, because the bearings are so much softer than the steel spindle there shouldn't be too much scoring.

In the end you're just going to have to judge how far to go, based on how confident you feel, and how worried you are about making it worse. These old machines are pretty cheap, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if it was unusable afterwards. Equally if it's all you can get your hands on, or you just like the machine, maybe you'd be more cautious.

The scoring, could of course be reversed. It is possible to build up with weld, or better to have it metal sprayed. The critical thing with that would be that you would have to find someone to cylindrically grind it, back to it's nominal size. I suspect there is not enough value in the machine to make it worthwhile.

I think I said earlier. You don't need an immaculate machine to do very nice work. It might take longer, but knowing how is certainly part of the skill and the sense of satisfaction and achievement.

If you are unable to prevent the spindle being loose in the head, you will find it almost impossible to do good work. As long as it runs freely without any perceptible slack, all of the other problems are can be worked around.

Hi andy

thank you for your reply

it annoys me at times because I used to recon engines so line boring /crank grinding and all machining involved was a day to day thing ,and I could have restored the headstock in no time , but that was then , as for sorting the lathe out I know I am capable I just like as much info as possible from people who already know the machine in question ,it saves headaches , and yes they are cheap to those that can afford a gamble but unfortunately I cant. I cant work and on a very tight budget plus health issues .so I try to keep my brain active .that's why I wont be beat and let a £200 lathe get the better I cant afford to he who dares rodders

regards wayne

hello all

the story of my ml4 is becoming a nightmare .today I stripped all the nasty paint off the headstock to find filler on top behind the taper bearing that's been tack welded on ,and yes its a mess in the past the journal casting as been snapped and welded in a fashion once the filler was removed . bubble gun and blue tac would look better ,but I will continue my challenge till a ml4 headstock comes along .so if anyone has a spare for sale please contact me .

regards wayne