Member postings for Paul Kemp

Well electrickery is not my deep specialism I was the engineer superintendent on the job, can only recount what I saw. Total available power was four 160kW generators if all on the board at once with the bus tie closed but ship maximum load 50% of the maximum power (100% redundancy) only 2 machines on the board at the time, bus voltage 415v 50hz. Whether a ship is classed or not hasn't much to do with size, this was an 86m ferry but Class can go down to at least 24m. Lots of small vessels are classed and many administrations delegate approval responsibilities to Class. I can't remember the exact test being carried out at the time, probably under or over voltage trips as frequency and reverse power trips were usually done from the board instrumentation, the volt meters on the boards were analogue and not that easy to read small variations.

Paul.

I don't think it was a manufacturing defect, whe I said new out of the box that day it was that morning, the incident occurred in the afternoon. We had been doing a survey with the Class Surveyor to renew the Class cert and leccy had used the instrument on other tasks prior quite successfully both LV DC and HV AC. I suspect Andrew has it right, he simply had it on the wrong setting, it had been a long refit and everyone was tired. It never got sent back, we sailed the next day and never really found enough of it to send back! My point was they can be blown up.

Paul.

I like your confidence that a Fluke won't explode. I was on board ship in 2015 working on a bit of kit close to the 415v switchboard. The electrician was doing something on the switchboard on a low step up platform stood on the switchboard matting. I am unsure exactly what he was up too but he was checking something on the main bus mounted in the top of the switchboard using a brand new fluke just out of the box that day, supplied with a calibration cert - purchased from the US Fluke dealer in the locality. Long story short there was a massive flash and a bang and leccie was on the floor still holding the two undamaged leads, from each was dangling part of the meter, the remainder was spread all around the space! I don't know what he was up too but he was a certificated ETO of many years experience, he didn't get a an electric shock but he certainly got a surprise shock, as did I! He repeated the task he was up to after he changed his trousers with the old meter that was out of cert and it went fine (identical model - I had purchased the new one as we couldn't get the old one calibrated quickly enough). There wasn't enough left of the meter to be able to tell with certainty what range or function it was set too! I guess there is always an exception to the rule but certainly they can be blown up!

Paul.

Tim,

How accurately did you measure the shaft and bushes? None of those sizes (as you state) seem to correlate with standard flanged oilite bushes. So two possibilities, one is your measurements are off or two the manufacturer of the trainer used odd size bushings. The latter makes little sense in terms of cost - making their own bushes to odd sizes adds cost and complexity to their product, however they may have altered the length and OD of a standard product to suit the other materials they were using (although 15.4mm bore makes little sense either) so maybe it was the former! If so the lack of suitable off the shelf replacements protects their product in some ways by ensuring if you want parts you can only source them from them, or it guarantees obselesence and forces you to buy a new trainer? Probably the only way to match those sizes if your measurement is accurate is to make your own!

Paul.

Julian,

As Jason says in that size a steel boiler is the only way to go. Andrew must have been waiting for me to pop up!

Depends on your outlook but I don't think the costs are as scary as Jeff portrays. My 6" has cost me North of £10k, couldn't tell you exactly as I have stopped counting. Castings were about 15%, boiler 20 - 25%, rubber tyres 10% all of which were incurred in the first couple of years (been on it nearly 5 now) the rest sundry materials, fastness, cutters etc. I have done a lot of the smaller parts on a hobbymat, myford and mini mill and there are a lot of small bits but there are also some big hits, I am fortunate to also have an Elliot Omnimill and a Harrison L6 as well as access to a Bridgeport, Kearns horizontal borer, large radial arm drill, Holbrook, Edgewick, large Harrison and other assorted machines. The crank shaft, wheels, diff and flywheel were all done by me on large machines as was the cylinder block on the HBM and my Omnimill. I also cut my own gears on the Omnimill. So there haven't been any sub contract machining costs, with only the Boxford you will struggle unless you have access to some bigger kit, even for a 4 1/2" engine. With some creative set ups you will manage some of the bits but not all of them and if you have to pay someone to do them, that could cost as much as the boiler! Also consider the space you need, when mine is a pile of bits there is a lot of them. Don't be put off but certainly if you are going to buy a mill buy a big one! Finally be prepared for the time requirement, mine has absorbed most Saturday's for five years and a fair few evenings and other odd days and I am not finished yet! It is no short term or quick undertaking. However with enthusiasm and tenacity it is eminently do-able and very satisfying. Do remember though that most drawings contain errors so if you are contracting stuff out, make sure you check all the dimensions carefully before placing the job!

Other than that, go for it!

Paul.

Taper keys (usually gib head) as long as the taper is slow enough (off the top of my head shallower than 1 in 9) fit on all four faces and are designed to be self locking. If you ever have cause to remove one on say an old line shaft pulley or steam engine flywheel you will see how well! The top of the keyway is normally cut at the same angle as the key. Usually a quick blue check prior to driving properly home to verify. I fitted the flywheel on my traction engine so, it was going on temporarily to come off later and I only gave it a light tap to seat, was quite a fight to remove it again!

Paul.

I did refer to marine several times but it's not an insurmountable problem for vehicles and aircraft benefit from significantly lower air temperatures than at ground level. Toyota have done it for vehicles (in development) and there are others working towards it too. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different debate.

Paul.

Modular and scalable 200kW to mW.

https://www.ballard.com/fuel-cell-solutions/fuel-cell-power-products/marine-modules Other makes available!

Allegedly over 60% efficiency which whilst not ideal is almost twice as efficient as a diesel. Biggest problem with fuel cells is they do not react well to transient loads and they have a relatively slow ramp up to full power, hence requiring a battery bank to even out the load. Interestingly they have a service life somewhere akin to the heavy overhaul interval of a large diesel and with the on cost of battery renewal that skews the lower maintenance cost argument and if you bolt on to that the difference in fuel cost between h2 (whatever colour you want to choose) and marine fuel your container costs will increase! How that compares to current ten fold rise over 2 years is not clear because that is driven by other reasons.

Paul.

6 posts for such a splendid achievement? What do you have to put on here that impresses model engineers? I have been watching Ross's progress since he started the project and his attention to detail is second to none. That said Doug's TE1 is, I would say a worthy equal! Well done both, I certainly appreciate your efforts.

Paul.

I can't remember the make up of your cylinders but can you insert a spacer between the cylinder and trunk guide / support?

Paul.

That looks quite an ambitious cutter for a Centec! Don't go trying to climb mill with it, it will definitely be exciting!

Paul.

Dave,

I can't really comment on detail that may be commercially sensitive so will leave it as "maybe the companies that made the radios in your scrapped cars should have branched out into more complex electronic systems". All I can say is older plant with simpler electronics in my world is far more reliable than new plant with more complex solutions! I went through recently a series of failures on equipment produced by a European major entity that as the manufacturer they were unable to diagnose or explain. The fault only disapearing when every "box" in the system was replaced.

My take on the mess we are in now is companies who make "stuff" need to sell more "stuff" to make it profitable. To sell more "stuff" their "stuff" needs a short and finite life either through obsolescence or failure in order to keep the market for "stuff" vibrant. The word sustainable is often used in relation to economy and environment but the two resultant phrases are moving further apart.

Paul.

Mark,

Short answer is not much!

Longer answer is in ideal conditions you get around 200w per m2 of panel, depends on the panel, some are more, some less. For a house they reckon the average "sunshine" per day over a year is around 4.5 hrs. Given that static panels are in a fixed orienentation you may on the roof of a car be able to increase that to say 6hrs being optimistic so that would give you 1.2kWh for the day. Given a small EV will have a battery of say around 40kWh and space for around 1m2 of panel that won't take you far!

We looked at it for boats and we have a lot more room than that but also use a lot more power but the cost benefit / benefit is nowhere near close!

Paul.

Dave,

Hmmm, you had about the same success as me then! Agree I think DC is more about a commercial management solution than a technology one!

I can only relate this to a minute power network on ships with three or four generators to manage where the important factors are frequency (generator prime mover speed), voltage (controlled by AVR) and sychronisation. The "protections" being under and over, frequency and voltage, trips and for the network, preferential trips for load shedding where non essential systems can be knocked off to prevent overload and complete blackout! The overall system frequency depends on the size of transient loads and the speed of reaction, a large motor suddenly cutting in drags frequency down until the generators react and conversely when the motor shuts down the frequency will increase until the generators react. With electronic governor technology the reaction time is a lot faster than the old mechanical governors but there are still fluctuations. Load sharing to prevent motoring is something else. The main problem is programming the cut in / cut out points for surplus / additional generators to provide overlap in capacity due to the run up and synchronisation time of an additional set coming on line! There is significant advantage with a battery providing "instaneous" power to the distribution grid.

With regards to smart meters "controlling" load I have a problem. The constant TV ads telling me a smart meter can save me money are too me misleading! The smart meter itself will have no effect unless I make a conscious decision to switch something off because the smart meter tells me I am costing myself a lot of money! Now granted ££'s is a strong incentive to consumers but to me personally I doubt it would influence me not use the lathe for example! As I see it for a smart meter itself to make a difference in isolation it would need to be linked with inividual appliances programmed to shut down if consumption is excessive. I can tell you if I was halfway through screw cutting a thread and the smart meter indicated excessive consumption / cost and it shut down, I would be heading for so called smart meter with a large hammer! Similarly if I stopped for a tea break and the kettle failed to fire up because the instantaneous price had just increased! Lastly would be extremely unhappy if I decided to go out in my EV and it was depleted by a DC call to back feed the grid! This is all technology that may be beneficial for the planet but makes daily personal decision making and personal choice a lot more complicated. Although those functions can be automated the algorithm controlling is unlikely to pick up a spontaneous whim to do something outside the norm.

At the present time I can use as much power as I like as long as I am prepared to pay, governed only by the size of the incoming supply. I like that. In the future it seems there will be some device or external intervention controlling what I can have, when. I don't like that!

I am also wary of 'smart' technology reliability. Looking at a fleet of vessels old and new, the newer ones incorporating smart systems have lower reliability figures than the old and the cost of rectification almost twice as much.

Paul.

Anyone have a clear description of dynamic containment and the principles? From a quick search there is a lot of high level stuff littered with power industry abbreviations but I couldn't find anything that gives a clear explanation? What I take from it is as follows but I may not have properly understood!

Dynamic Containment (DC) is a means of maintaining the grid at its nominal 50hz within the specified limits. As load increases according to generating capacity when load exceeds capacity frequency drops - think generator and you apply a large instantaneous load, frequency drops until the engine governor reacts and applies more fuel to bring the speed back up and in the case where where load suddenly reduces the frequency rises until the engine governor takes fuel off to reduce the speed. DC therefore is a means of load balancing by bringing in additional capacity either to deliver or accept load. Termed low frequency (LF) where power needs to be delivered and high frequency (LF) where power need to be absorbed to maintain grid frequency at 50hz. Good so far? The frequency can therefore be maintained by switching in and out assets to deliver (LFDC) or absorb (HFDC) very quickly.

So to archive the objective there needs to be assets available to either provide or absorb power. These assets are controlled by power companies (PC) and with regard to DC and the descriptions seem to be battery based?

Commercially the PC will bid on a future basis submitting their bids on Tuesday between 7.00 and 10.00 am for LF (supply) or HF (absorption) or both to the grid, the week ahead being split into 24hr blocks (contracts) The grid accept for this transient use there is a premium to be paid (price advantage) to the PC. I think the minimum capacity is 1mW and maximum 50mW. However non delivery of bid capacity will result in penalty - financial incentive to deliver.

I think that is the big picture? Digging deeper the PC will sign up assets (potentially you and your mobile battery - EV) to make up their capacity to support their bids. In order to be confident they can deliver the capacity bid for, obviously they need a buffer in their pocket of more capacity than they need as if they under deliver or fail to deliver they will be penalised.

Is that how it works?

If so the PC either needs a portfolio of fixed and mobile batteries in order to be confident during the 24hr period there will always be capacity plugged in to meet the obligation. I am not sure how that works when filtered down to the micro level - the individual EV owner. Initially I guess where there will be relatively few participating EV's you may be contracted to be connected to the grid somewhere at certain times of the day? As the available assets increase it may become less restrictive. However as the principle is competitive bidding to keep costs reasonable for the grid, as more capacity becomes available the bid price achieved by PC will drop and hence the premium paid to the EV owner will also reduce. Bit like the current solar panel situation where the generous feed in tariffs were put in place originally to encourage house owners to participate but now with growing capacity it is no longer necessary. In fact DC would make more sense to be concentrated on solar panels with battery storage, as a baseline will be much easier to predict with respect to state of charge and the batteries will always be connected as opposed to the mobile assets. I would bet though if you want maximum benefit from EV to grid, get in at the beginning because the benefit is bound to reduce with time.

Paul.

Vic,

Yes I read the headline, yes I understand the concept of destination charging and have given an example of such in another thread that would be available to me but for a variety of reasons is not practical. (This is an abbreviated version of a more detailed reply but this dozy site logged me out and I lost it and I can't be bothered to write it all again!).

I have spent the last two years working with multinationals to develop a green solution. Not an academic exercise but a real world solution to be commercially implemented. Through that I am well aware of the limitations and costs. Comparison made between a diesel, electric, hybrid or hydrogen solution covering duty cycle / asset availability, capital and running costs. Cheapest solution 30% more than simple diesel and running costs not significantly lower if projections are correct - although we hope they are worst case!

You say you would like to have an EV when the costs come down - when do you think that will be? There are a number of reasons why overall costs are unlikely to change greatly so if it suits your needs its a probably as good a time as any to do it. Not casting any asspertions on your financial position but if you are waiting for prices to drop either you cannot afford it or you can't justify to yourself that expenditure - why else would you wait? Being honest although approaching retirement but still having a reasonably well paid job I can't afford the kind of vehicle I would need to keep doing what I enjoy doing - towing a minimum 2 tonnes with a range of around 200m.

I am aligned with Dave (SOD) that we need to clean up our act and I also think we are close on the attitude, lifestyle, cultural change required to embrace the alternatives. However he seems to think I am focussed on cheap, I am not, I am focussed on affordable. If we peasants want to move around freely as we have for the last 60 years or be that on public or by personal transport then we need to be able to afford it. That is one of the blocks, that is not my fantasy that is fact and that is a current block identified by Vic.

Paul.

Advance to the front line corporal Jones! Hold on Captain Mainwearing I need to charge the van first

I somehow doubt that future conflicts will rely on tanks and troop carriers anyway so we are we are not doomed.

Paul.

Vic,

Are you sure there is no bias in your link? I mean it is not as if they have anything to gain being a commercial organisation - I didn't see any reference to charitable status or not for profit entity? It doesn't say 60% of people have drives either - it actually says they have access to off street parking. There is a world of difference! Yes there are many people that do have access to off street parking but consider estates where that parking is remote from your house. A man I know has a wife that is a community midwife and the NHS has decreed she must be issued with an EV. He has off street parking - in the car park attached to the estate (which has no chargers) and is 100m from his house. How does she charge her car? She has no office or base, all she does it make house calls. What is she supposed to do when arriving at the patients house - ask if they would mind dreadfully if she plugs her car into one of their 3 pin sockets while she does her business?

The gent writing the article stated he parks his car at the railway station overnight to charge and enjoys the walk home and back in the morning. All fine and dandy when the sun shines but in the middle of winter? All I can say is he is very lucky, it costs around £8 to park for 12 hrs at our local station and it only has around 100 spaces......

Never mind my bags of empathy, apply some critical thinking to your references and use your empathy to understand the problems this will bring to many. TfL provides some very reasonably priced public transport in the city but do you think the passengers only pay? Just look at the millions that went into the Mayors cap last year to prop it up! Exactly the reason he wants to implement the charge for anyone without a resident postcode within the M25 to pay around £5 a day to drive inside it - the revenue to prop up TfL. That scheme has gone quiet at the moment but I am sure he will resurrect it as soon as he can. Like others on here I would like to think my children and grandchildren will have the freedom of movement I have enjoyed but somehow I doubt it. It's not as easy as the flag waving representatives of us all will have you believe. Green is not just a technology choice it's will be a complete lifestyle and cultural change and despite all the claims of cheap or free energy - nothing comes for free and it certainly won't be cheap. Just understand what you are wishing for. To properly address emissions is going to take a whole lot more than fixing transport.

Paul.

Dave,

Glad you see it as a trivial risk. I see it more as a serious risk in terms of a single point of failure. Agreed already there are areas of daily life completely dependent on electricity and computing such as finance, already you won't have access to money you own if the lights are out. Then even if you have cash and the lights are out there are few retailers geared up to operate without EPOS. In fact this is nothing more than a minor irritation in the short term. Consider a slightly longer term however, say a serious interruption of a week. There are not many people that would accept or cope with that. That would be more than a minor irritation to me even if it were localised and I could drive out of the area to buy food. Which if I had an EV as well I probably couldn't do more than once depending on the distance. I am not a survivalist or American mountain man but I do have a generator in the shed that will run the freezer, keep a few lights on and power the boiler (gas) so in the short term there are options.

Not sure where manufactured goods come into the argument outside of processed food? I don't know of many people who would not survive the non availability of purchasing the latest phone, a new washer drier etc etc. Yes society seems wholly reliant on manufacturing and yes most if not all of that is powered by electrickery but is it vital - unless it's food, probably not.

My point is by going completely electric and extending the connectivity of appliances to be reliant on Internet connectivity or signals from our smart meters we are more vulnerable. I can remember the power strikes, back then they were a pain but we had gas to cook and coal / wood for heat and candles / oil for light and it wasn't the end of the world. Up to five years ago I spent the previous ten years of my working life in the Carribean where power outages were a regular daily occurance from a few minutes to several hours. The water was off more than it was on, same with interweb. Why would I want to return to that? Alarmist, maybe but in my business nothing is allowed to have a single point of failure and that is where we are headed.

As to being against technology I am all for it when applied in a robust and reliable manner and have spent the last 2 years trying to drive the design of a green project working with some large entities and most of the technology is very immature and far from robust. The most recent green project has only been operational for 60% of the time and that is a system from a global player of some reputation. So I have good reason for skepticism.

Paul.

Just another example of how vulnerable society will become in the future. We will be completely reliant on electrickery. Either a natural disaster or an act of aggression could completely disable the country. Covid has driven us closer to a cashless society but no leccy and no interweb equals no money! No good going to the local bank, they will have no clue how much you had in your account with central records down and they won't have a pile of notes in the cupboard. That supposes there is a bank you can reach on foot without your EV with its flat battery. Shops will be empty, most likely looted because without power they won't be able to sell stuff and most orders and supply chains are electronic anyway so restocking will be out, especially if delivery trucks are electric too. Where will you get your news as to what is happening? Water won't come out of the tap, cooking will be difficult for most. Will military vehicles be electric too? The future is indeed bright.

Paul.