Member postings for Paul Kemp

Jon,

Yes I did read and I thought your post was balanced in its content. As I thought SOD's post and several others were also fair comment. Did you read mine? Particularly the comment re the following is not specifically aimed at this thread but forum postings re tooling in general?

It winds me up with forum postings in general where people jump in and offer advise as 'gospel' when they have been tinkering in the shed for 20 years for a couple of hours a week. I have been employed in the marine engineering industry for 40 years and still do not consider myself a gold plated expert despite professional registration and institute recognition, which is why I rarely post. I have also been involved with full sized and miniature steam for about the same period. There is no wrong (unless it's dangerous to operator or machine) or right way to do a job, the right way is the one that gives the results desired with the kit you have at your disposal. Sadly this thread just reminded me of a similar thread on the same subject recently where there was much talking out of bottoms! Wrong day or time of the month perhaps but I didn't want to see this one go the same way.

Plain fact is as alluded to by others including yourself is being able to grind a tool is an essential part of using a lathe to its full capability and to a reasonable budget so a very worthwhile skill to aquire be it carbide, HSS or anything else exotic you may care to use. I am afraid it's my opinion and only my opinion that you can call yourself a turner when you can grind the tool, if you have to rely on pre ground inserts (which undoubtably have their place) then you are an operator.

I fully agree that reading forum posts properly is a problem, many examples of that on here.

Paul.

Every time this subject comes up I never cease to be amazed at the opinions proffered re brazed tip carbide tooling and grinding HSS tools. Fact is the principles of grinding both are the same, it's only the wheel used that is different. It's not that hard to buy and fit a green grit wheel either.

My feeling is like SOD suggests, that the number of posts on the forum generally rubbishing brazed carbide tooling is a result of personal opinion based on the fact the poster cannot grind a tool rather than any real failing with the tool itself. Back when I did my apprenticeship insert tooling wasn't widely in use and the general expectation was a turner would be able to grind his own tools mainly on an off hand grinder. While I agree with SOD that not everyone is good or even capable of doing everything, grinding a tool is a manual task requiring the attributes of many other 'engineering' tasks required to complete many engineering projects. As such it should not really be beyond someone who is capable of making something given sufficient experimentation and practise. It is a 'skill' that is well worth developing particularly if you are on a budget and as Andrew says exact precise angles are not that critical, just angles in the right direction in the right place! The following comments are not related specifically to this thread but are a response to this subject generally when it crops up on the forum;

It is worth remembering also that a professional turner will have had something like four years training / experience learning his trade which would comprise of about 40hrs per week - translate that to hobby activity in the shed in your spare time! I did 5 years training as a fitter/turner, nine months of which was spent using a hacksaw and files. Using a lathe is lot more than just grinding and setting a tool, it encompasses work holding, machine setting (adjusting slides, tailstock etc), cutting speeds and feeds etc.

It is frustrating to me when I see posts telling a new starter a particular piece of kit or tooling is rubbish, probably only because they tried it and couldn't master it for whatever reason. Brazed carbide, HSS, insert tooling, tangential tooling all have their place depending on the application. As suggested HSS blanks are probably the cheapest way of tooling up although brazed carbide must come close - I bought a boxed set of 16mm sq for about £25 to do some of the bigger bits of my half size traction engine and have ground them at will to produce radii / profiles as required. I also use insert tips but a box of 10 is between £20 and £30 for a single shape. I also use HSS, turning the crank which is 28" long there wasn't anything else that would fit or give me the finish I needed with the constraints of speed against balance. So come on gents, when offering a new starter advise which they may take as gospel, rather than say something is carp, phrase it as some do, as personally I didn't find this good but it may be down to my inexperience. A bad workman always blames his tools ............

Paul.

David,

I assume the Gate Elliott 00 mill is the same as the Elliott juniormill 00 (sometimes called the Omnimill). These machines have a swivelling vertical head, horizontal spindle with over arm and power feed to the table in the X axis. If that's what it is, grab it with both hands! They are great little machines and none of the current 'hobby' machines will come anywhere close. I bought one which is as far as I can tell getting on for 50 years old but still has plenty of life in it. So far I have done some machining operations on th cylinder of my half size traction engine and am currently cutting the final drive gear which is 4 DP, so chunky teeth, 19.5" diameter, using the horizontal spindle. Mine has MT3 spindles in both directions so tooling is interchangeable between them. I have a face mill which I used in the horizontal spindle to machine the side of my cylinder casting and then swapped to the vertical spindle to do the top - only one set up of the job for 2 faces and bang on square to each other.

I don't think you will regret getting it. Yes it's big and heavy and takes up space but it's worth it.

Paul.

Terry,

As reinforced by others if it were mine, as a first step, I would clean it up completely so you can get a good look at it. To get a good look one of the cheap endoscopes that work with phones or tablets would be a good bet, allows you to get a square on view and provides some magnification. If it's been done right then once clean you should see a fillet of silver solder around the tube, look carefully to see if you can see either a pin hole or a crack. It might help to pump it up whilst looking closely if you can't see anything obvious as the water will give you a clue. Then you can make a decision on the way forward. If it's a pin hole I would work gently round it with a small blunt centre punch and toffee hammer to peen it in on itself. If it's a crack then I think I would try a tapered drift to expand the tube into the plate, unless you can find a miniature roller tube expander. If you go OTT you will like as not make it worse! Then test again to see if you have improved or cured it. If it is cracked then it's likely the tube was too tight a fit in the plate so the solder has not penetrated right through but just formed a fillet on the outside, expansion and contraction will do the rest!

Not sure about proprietary engine sealer as an IC engine will run at about 70 to 85 degrees C, the boiler will be significantly hotter than that so whatever is in the mix may not like higher temps. Starch was used in full size engines back in the day so has a bit of a track record.

You would have to be a member of the club to use the club boiler tester, under the code they are only empowered to inspect members boilers or by special arrangement between clubs members of another club. I personally doubt that a commercial inspector would be demanding material certs for a copper boiler of that size - steel would be very different and material and welder certs would be required. You would be looking at a guess at between £200 and £300 for his services though! Makes club subscriptions and a free test by the club inspector rather attractive, standards, knowledge and experience do vary though.

A cautionary note though, the above are merely suggestions, what you ultimately choose to do is entirely up to you and best done under the guidance of the person or body that will certificate it. There is a commercial boiler maker as a forum member if you do a search, maybe ask him if he wants a job!

Paul.

Terry,

Duncan's advise is sound re getting a club boiler inspector involved and as Paul asks you really need to give more detailed information to get an informed reply. Is the leak at the firebox end or the smokebox end, how bad is it? Can you maintain the test pressure on a pump with just a weep or is it streaming out and you can't hold the pressure at all?

To give you some info assuming it is a copper boiler which is silver soldered sadly it is not usually possible to make any long lasting repair if the leak is where it is likely to be which is the soldered joint of the tube to tube plate. Some will claim it is possible but if the boiler has ever been steamed there will be scale / corrosion or even products of combustion in the interface between tube and plate which is impossible to properly clean and get a proper full penetration solder joint. In addition getting the heat to the joint will undoubtably disturb adjacent tubes and like as not cause more leaks! It may be possible if it's silver soldered to clean around the joint and run a fillet of high temp soft solder (comsol) round it to get a seal that may last a few seasons.

That said, how bad is the leak, is it just a bead of water, a slow drip or a steady stream? Depending on how bad the leak is and having a pragmatic and informed boiler inspector if it's just a bead it may still pass a hydraulic test. On a risk basis if the joint lets go altogether what is the worst that can happen? It will put the fire out, may send a jet of steam out the firehole door or up the chimney but it's very unlikely to lead to a full blown spectacular catastrophic failure! I have a copper loco boiler that has a slight weep from a top tube in the firebox on a cold hydraulic test but when hot it seals and there is not a whisp of steam, it's been like it many years and has never got any worse. So before doing anything get it looked at by an experienced inspector. If it's just a pin hole in the silver solder it may be possible to peen it over to seal it. Better to look at the easy, cold options first before trying to wade in with a blow lamp! Another dodge if it's a pin hole is to steam it up using water in which you have boiled potatoes, the starch in the water will be carried into the hole and if you are lucky seal it! No doubt there will be people who will hysterically react to these 'bodges' but these will be the people who have little or no experience or have never witnessed a full size boiler hydraulic test.

Worst case scenario if it's a decent leak and the joint has completely failed is a new boiler. From your other posts I deduce that you have bought this engine without any assistance or advice from someone with some experience and are now sadly reaping the benefits of not knowing the pitfalls. Buying a steam engine without any certification is a lottery unfortunately.

Paul.

Terry,

Have you connected the gauge directly to a reference or are you connecting it through the siphon? Due to the small bore of the siphon it us not uncommon for them to become blocked with scale and hence give a false reading! The age of a guage shouldn't be detrimental it's the hours in steam that will wear it out! If it's been sat 20 years doing nothing it's not deteriorating if it's been dry stored?

You can get a replacement from various sources but worthy of note its best to get one with a pre marked red line on the dial as if you open up an unmarked one to mark it the supplier usually says your warranty is void! Miniature Pressure Guage Supply Co offer pre marked gauges of various sizes and styles. (No connection but have purchased from them in the past).

Paul.

Terry,

Yes the safety valve(s) will need to be removed and blanked or gagged to ensure the 1.5 (or 2x) test pressure can be achieved. The pressure gauge should also be removed and the siphon connection blanked (unless your gauge is ranged to accept the test pressure plus a reasonable margin). The pressure gauge syphon also needs to be blown through to ensure it is clear and the pressure gauge calibrated against a master gauge or dead weight tester. Everything else (clacks, water gauge etc) should be left in place as they are part of the "pressure system". The clacks shouldn't leak or suffer any detriment from the test, they should just seat harder as the pressure increases!

Once you have your cold hydraulic test you need to do a steam test and verify the safety valves lift at the correct pressure and pass sufficient steam to avoid any accumulation (further rise in pressure) you are allowed a margin of 10% over working pressure for accumulation. This is why it's important to calibrate your gauge as that is what you will be referring to in steam so it should be at least checked at working pressure even if not through the entire range.

Paul.

Terry,

In the absence of a personal assistant there are a number of books around that will give you some ideas about steaming up. "The Building and Running of Steam Traction Engine and Roller Models" by H R Plastow being one. It is more pitched towards building one but does have a bit of information in the back re running. Not sure if it's still in print and the copy I have has no ISBN number that I can see but you may find a second hand copy somewhere. Whilst you may not be interested in the building of one looking at how they are made will give you an insight into how they work.

If you give a clue as to your location, even just County some one on here may recomend a suitable club. There are a few things you will need to collect together before you put a match to it like a small electric 'blower' which is really a 'sucker' to pop on the chimney to draw the fire and some steam oil.

If you check the websites of the Southern Federation or Northern Association of Model Engineering Society you should find a link to the latest version of the boiler test code which will give you some idea of how to get it tested or do your own test.

Addendum - no idea what went wrong with this!  It just stopped accepting text had to post it incomplete to avoid losing it altogether, reopened twice to edit and it still wouldn't accept text!

Paul.

Edited By Paul Kemp on 17/05/2018 23:56:47

Edited By Paul Kemp on 17/05/2018 23:58:24

Edited By Paul Kemp on 18/05/2018 00:03:14

Terry,

If you wish to steam the engine in a public place then yes it should be tested and in fact will have to be tested to get insurance - a desirable thing for both yourself and anyone around you! If you just intend steaming it in your backyard without any one else around then no you don't have to have it tested, it's your own risk!

To get it tested and certificated you have two routes, a commercial boiler inspector, a member of the Independent Boiler Inspector's Association would be a good one to choose, could cost you between £100 and £200. The other route is to join a model engineering society, they usually do boiler tests 'free' as part of the member service. It is important to note the two routes are not interchangeable, ie you can't have a 10 year hydraulic commercial certificate combined with an annual cold exam and steam test from a MES.

Hopefully you will have some previous evidence of test in the form of old expired certificates that came with the engine? You should at least have a certificate for a 2 X WP hydraulic shell test when the boiler was built? If not it is possible either a commercial or club inspector will require the boiler cladding to be removed so a full examination can be carried out - more likely so in your case as the boiler is clearly over 10 years old (you stated it was on the cover of ME in 1976).

Any steam event organiser will want to see evidence of current test certificates and insurance before you will be permitted to steam it if you want to attend a rally or show.

Insurance is available from several sources but the best option for you would probably be Walker Midgley, you can pick and choose cover with public liability (boiler insurance), RTA cover and even theft or damage, check their web site for costs.

Last comment I would make is if you have never steamed an engine before it's a good idea to find someone experienced who can show you the way to do it, as someone suggested in your other post joining a club is a good way to find someone and a source for boiler testing. It will keep you safe and prevent damaging the engine / boiler. It's not rocket science but with little knowledge it's easy to get things wrong!

Enjoy it and have fun.

Paul.

Sorry I am missing something there, what is a high street bank? Ours closed this year shortly to reopen as a Mexican restaurant! If you need to pay in a cheque we now have to travel to the city 9 miles away and take the park and ride, half day job now to do what we used to do in 15m! Niether banks or Insurance companies have existed to provide customer service for years but solely to gamble with our money to make loads for themselves! They have the added bonus that when they get it wrong someone else (ie the good old taxpayer) picks up the tab! When did you last hear of an insurance company recording an overall loss? As others have said it's purely business. Doesn't matter if you pay your premium for years with no claims, as soon as something happens where you need to the premium then increases until they recoup what they paid! Nice work.

Paul.

Unfortunately most insurance companies these days use 'professional' claims management companies to deal with claims - unless you insist otherwise, and you are legally entitled to insist.

I have two vehicles insured with different companies, one through a broker and one direct with the insurer. Sadly in the last couple of years they were both subject to no fault damage.

The first, my landrover was rear ended by two cars whilst stationary at a junction, the last one in the chain was allegedly on his phone although the police who attended decided not to persue that! I was abroad and my wife was driving, she called the broker and they immediately passed her to their claim managers who arranged to drop off a hire car and collect the landrover as their computer said it wasn't drivable! As it happened it was the tow bar that took the brunt of the impact, the only other damage was the bumper was set up slightly distorting the plastic trim that prevented the rear door being opened and an indicator light lens was broken. When they dropped off the hire car and took ours she was asked to sign the 'credit agreement' without explanation of what she was signing or a chance to read it! She had been allowed by the police to drive off after the accident on proviso she had the smashed lamp fixed ASAP, both the other vehicles were undrivable, the one that hit us direct being about 18" shorter than it used to be! When I returned home and started to chase it up I was informed our vehicle had been taken to an assesment centre in London 70 miles away and they were expecting it to be a write off! In the end I had to get quite forceful and tell them firstly the agreement my wife signed was not accepted as she had been made to sign under false pretences and secondly my vehicle would not be written off, it would be repaired. The law on road traffic insurance states it will cover loss or damage howsoever caused. I got my vehicle repaired.

The second incident was my car being hit while parked outside my house and then they hit my neighbour's car as well. I caught the perpetrators, took pictures of everything (much to their displeasure) and reported it. Same thing, the insurance company tried to direct me to the claims management company which I refused. I took it to the insurance co advised repairer who took pictures of it and insurance company pulled the same stunt - it's a write off sir! I then discovered it had been assessed by a desktop assesment bureau up North from the pictures taken by the repairer. Oh no it isn't! Took it to my own repairer and they insisted a proper claims assessor visit, took a little argument but in the end they agreed to repair. The idiots who hit the cars tried to claim from my neighbour's insurance for whiplash - very quickly dismissed when I forwarded the pictures!

Claims management companies are sadly another parasitic industry that has grown up feeding from misfortune. The hire car supplied in the first claim was owned by the claim managers and was charged out at three times the rate I could have hired a car direct from Hertz. The actual cost of the damage at a body shop where they insisted on fitting a new bumper and light unit and sorting out the thumb size dent in the quarter panel was just short of £3k. Because of the transport of the vehicle round the country and the delays introduced by the claim managers the bill for the hire car for 6 weeks was over £10k!! Very nice little earner to charge out a vehicle at premium prices and then drag the very simple repair out as long as possible!!

Footnote is at the next renewal my premium was slightly increased and that was before declaration of the incident on the other insurance. When I called to report it I was told they had to check if there would be an increase even though it was a no fault claim. I made it known that there had better not be and after checking they agreed to hold the price. The other policy at renewal had increased by £100! When I called and challenged it they very quickly dropped it back to the previous year's level. They will walk all over you if you let them, do not take any nonsense. There is a legal obligation under the RTA for damage caused by a third party to be properly addressed, it's a bit different if you are claiming for your own damage though, you are then at the mercy of the insurance valuation.

Paul.

Echo Philip's comment re the machine itself, they are a cracking bit of kit, very pleased with mine. Well worth the effort of picking it up. I am building a half size traction engine and it's been invaluable for that. There are not many modern machines (if any) in the hobby market that give you the flexibility of the vertical and horizontal functions. As Philip also says, they are built to do a decent job. Mine dates back to the 60's but it still turns out some good accurate work, it also has the MT3 sockets in both spindles so tooling like chucks and boring heads can be shared between the spindles. My mate has a Bridgeport but for my money the Omnimill is far more versatile.

Paul.

Colin,

Split mine into 3. Two nuts gets you the vertical head off, then we withdrew the knee gib and unbolted the nut on the knee screw and lifted the knee and table assy off - that bit is heavier than the head. You really need an engine crane or gantry as the head is more than a two man lift at height, knee / table assy about the same. Column can be shifted on rollers but you won't be picking that up to put on a trailer or in a van without some lifting gear.

Paul.

Hmmm,

Been following your saga from the side lines. I think it's quite clear from your videos that the column is pretty well at 90 degrees (square) to the table but the axis of the spindle is not parallel to the column. Evidenced by raising / lowering the head on the column slide ways and your clock indicating roughly true against your square but when the quill is extended your clock not indicating true.

A quick and dirty rough check to confirm would be to wind the table in close to the column and put your square on the table against the column slide ways and look at any gap (use a light behind the square) you should see the amount of light visible between the blade of the square and column pretty well equal right down the blade. Then stick a length of silver steel in the spindle collet (you can rotate it against a clock at the lower end to confirm it is straight) and then put your square on the table resting against the silver steel on the front side and I will wager you will see a noticiable gap at the top or bottom of the blade of the square!

The purists here will gasp at such a rough and ready check but I think it will be perfectly good enough to show you what you need to know / already suspect.

There are plenty of very happy owners of Warco Machines, sounds like you just got the Friday afternoon unit. I hope they put this right without fuss.

Paul.

Colin,

All fine and dandy, but...... If say the leak is on a stay head you can only properly clean the visible and accessible surface to silver solder which will give you a fillet on the surface. Cleaning the actual interface between stay and plate to acceptable levels to get the silver solder to wick into the space is all but impossible without removing the stay entirely. Given the access to work on even a large 3 1/2" gauge loco firebox even a silver soldered repair is not going to be a permanent job. Peening or 'caulking' the stay head is perfectly acceptable. Any repair is little more than a life extension and a delay of the inevitable eventual replacement.

Paul.

From a vivid imagination I would guess Brian! There are not many 3 1/2" gauge loco's around that run at that pressure but even considering a retest after 'repair' at 2xwp which could easilly be 180 the old ways still work. Key is in the units, pounds per square inch!! Consider the sort of leak described and how big the 'hole' is. Can be measured in thou so then how many pounds force on that area?

For Colin's benefit, back in the day it was not unheard of to introduce oats or even potato to a leaking traction engine boiler with great success and many compound engines did indeed have working pressures between 150 and 200 psi.

For the OP, it is important to identify EXACTLY the source of the leak. If it is a weep around a stay then peening is probably the way to go, introducing heat into the mix especially if it's an old boiler is likely to result in further leaks. Does it leak when it's hot is the question. I know of a copper boiler, silver soldered with a weep on a tube on the FB tube plate, hydraulic can be easilly achieved and in steam when it's hot there is no leak. It's been running for years like that with no problem.

Paul.

Martin,

There is no disputing the value of superheating steam. Whether you can actually get any meaningful degree of superheat in a 5" gauge engine is quite another matter. The writer acknowledges his ancient Speedy fails to develop any superheat even when driven hard. I would be surprised if there are many 5" gauge loco's that develop more than a few degrees of superheat let alone the amount required for a noticeable impact on efficiency. Is there any published data for actual superheat achieved for various designs?

Paul.

I wouldn't be so sure about commercial ones! I had two commercial 3/8" clack valves brand new, unused, in old Reeves packaging so I had to assume they were from that source. They came to me with a pile of bits with my 4" Winson Ruston and Proctor. The original Winson ones leaked like a sieve so I tested the "Reeves" ones cold on compressed air at 90 psi in a bucket of water - looked like it was boiling! Took them apart thinking they were possibly dirty but they were as clean as the day they were made, never bothered trying them hot. Ended up making my own.

Paul.

Anyone interested in attending the Canterbury event can also contact me via PM. There will be a nominal charge at the door (under £5) to assist with offsetting some of the cost of staging the event, the more that come the cheaper it will be! Don't be shy, should be an interesting evening. Free tea, coffee and biscuits!

Paul.

Nigel,

Not to worry on the picture, I am leaning towards not using the original pump as the main spindle is reversible (from the motor) for the feed when using the vertical head on the Omnimill so you have to keep crossing and uncrossing the belt for the pump each time you change direction! Hadn't thought of that before!

Has anyone any experience of using a cheap pond type submersible pump with neat cutting oil? I am curious to know if the oil will 'dissolve' or degrade the plastic housing. Probably fine for soluble oil but not sure about neat oil!

Paul.