Member postings for Ketan Swali

There are quite a few posts in history. If you google search for Ketan Swali pre-load, you will find a good range of discussion.

Hi Howard,

small correction: SIEG C3 is brushed motor with hi/lo gear drive.

SIEG SC3 is brushless motor with belt drive.

Ketan at ARC

Oops yes, Jason is correct. My mistake. I had confused the SX2.7 with another machine. Apologies.

Ketan@ARC

Hi Michael,

I will try to explain in simple terms as I have understood it from SIEG, and I hope it is understandable.

For the brushless range, the torque and speed are programmed onto a chip for the SIEG machines.

In the programming, improved torque is available at low speed, with a specific arrangement of belt drive, or a combination of belt and gear drive, providing a maximum speed of around 2000 rpm.

However, if the maximum speed is programmed on the chip at around 6000 rpm, the torque available at the lower speed is low.

So, for example: the same 1000w output brushless motor is used in the SC4 lathe, and the KX3 CNC Mill.

The SC4 lathe delivers higher torque starting at the lower speed, which is carried through to its max speed of 2000rpm.

The KX3 CNC mill chip on control board programing delivers high max speed, but the torque is low at low speed, gradually increasing as the speed increases.

So two different torques curves. On certain machines such as the SX2.7 mill which uses a 750w output brushless motor, in addition to the programing of the chip, a hi/low belt drive is also used to control the speed range and in turn deliver better torque on the lower speed belt arrangement.

The correct balance in programming/set up of belt/gear is difficult to achieve, and it would be wrong to presume that all brushless motor based machines from different manufacturers will perform in the same way, even though the principal concept is broadly similar for most brushless motor arrangements.

Hope above explanation is understandable.

Ketan at ARC

Hi Chris

I own Arc, but nowadays I just work part time on some back office projects, and I look in on forum threads and comment now and then.

Our Ian along with Brett and the team run the business. I have no idea if there will be any Black Friday deals, and if so, what they are likely to be. If you want to discuss your mill requirement for shipment to Ireland, I would suggest you call and speak with Ian.

Ketan at ARC

Hello Christropher,

Before you get too carried away, I would strongly suggest you buy and read link: Milling for Beginners written by Jason Ballamy. It is written in plain English. It is based on the SX2.7 mill. It addresses issues on how to use small mills in general, as well as helps you understand limitations.

With regards to rigidity, Andrew is fortunate to have a good old second hand industrial machine, with horizontal attachment to cut gear teeth easily in one pass. To put it into context, the machine on which he is cutting the gear probably weighs around four times or more than an SX2.7 vertical mill. As Andrew stated, gear cutting on vertical mill can be problematic. Even if you tried to bolt the blank onto the rotary table in a similar way to Andrews suggestion, it would be wrong to think that this is the only rigidity issue, and that you will get the same results as Andrew, because to start with the physical weight of the SX2.7 is much lighter than Andrews.

Andrews approach is correct for the type of machine he has. For the SX2.7, Jasons approach is correct, but it is combined with knowledge/experience of how to use a small light weight small mill. You also need to consider what material you are cutting, along with speed, feed and depth of cut more appropriate to any machine you ultimately decide to buy. How things happen on one machine will be different from how they will work on another model of a machine.

Ketan at ARC

Hi Kenneth,

Apologies for the delay in response. For some reason I failed to get a notification email for this thread. I have re-marked it to send me a notification if there is an update in the future.

We have joined the IOSS system and tested it out manually. We found that there are fun and games involved depending on interpretation of rules by the customs of different EU states. To standardise the process to make things easier is taking time, as we are having to get the couriers and their counterparts/customs to do things correctly.

As a temporary measure, on a case by case basis, if you want ARC to consider your order through the IOSS process, or duty tax paid(DTP/DDP) process for orders valued over Euros 150, take a snapshot of your order before checkout and email it to ARC. In subject line state FAO Ian - regarding IOSS. Please state your full name, address, telephone contact details in your email. Ian will then get back to you with IOSS compliant proforma for your consideration. If workable, he will guide you through the payment process. This idea is a temporary suggestion, for consideration on a case by case basis, BEFORE any order is finalised. We are unable to consider this idea once an order is placed.

The IOSS/DTP/DDP options are only available to retail customers, and not to B2B EU VAT registered businesses,/individuals who are unable to use the IOSS/DTP/DDP to claim back their VAT.

Over the past few months I have been working with our website developers to make the whole process automated. As our website links into our order processing/accounts software, making the courier API to integrate with our site and our site to integrate the IOSS back office process correctly with our accounting software and reporting VAT collected monthly for each of the 27 states in the EU to a specific IOSS tax authority, is a lovely long winded process.

The test site to test out the process for IOSS and DTP is hoped to be ready during next week. It is overdue by about a month due to various complications. So the next stage will be to test and try to iron out the bugs, before going live. If all goes to plan, it is hoped that the new site will go live in about a month, or latest by early next year.

Ketan at ARC

There is no offence intended by my last response to you.

If you believe that your comments are going to be helpful to Nathan in this particular case, even if such comments are general comments about estop switches, then make them, or not, as you prefer. Or take up Michael’s suggestion and raise a different post, for more people to read and understand estop switches better. It may make an interesting thread on its own.

Ketan at ARC

Edited By Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 21:49:58

Hi NDIY,

This is an example of the debate I wanted to keep away from.

It really does not matter about in whose camp you are in.

The brushless motors specifically used by SIEG in the brushless series of machines are far more reliable than the old brushed motor models. The related control boards for the brushless motors specifically used by SIEG, again are far more reliable than the ones used for the brushed motor versions. Yes, component failure with any machine is still an issue in some cases, but as I said before, user inexperience is still a very strong contributing factor... but then again, as a seller i would say that.

I have clearly explained that brushless motor is less likely to have damaged. I have clearly said that the control board for the brushless motor version , even though it has overload protection, 'finally gives up the ghost' if the machine is regularly abused. Thankfully in the world scheme of users, such events for SIEG brushless machines a very low. This statement does not apply to other manufacturers brushless machines, many of which have lower rated brushless motors, still poorly programmed control boards, with mechanical gear combinations which are simply wrong in our opinion.

So, now referring to the 'fit for purse' comment... the SIEG brushless models are far more expensive than the brushed models of what ever nature out there. They are a lot more reliable and this results in cost increase. But as they are more expensive than the brushed models, sales for brushless are less than brushed.

Customer buys what he /she can afford. In the brushed models the motors can be as expensive as you want and as cheap as you want. the control boards can be with all bells and whistles - with overload protection or without overload protection, all reflected in the price, however, not reflected in the marketing by many distributors, many of whom talk up a low specification machine in their marketing BS. This i would agree is wrong.

All of this leads to greater sales of cheaper machines, to a new customer base which has reduced mechanical knowledge than the previous generation, for historical reasons, resulting in greater increase in machine failures.

As a result it would be wrong for me say what is really right or wrong and the debate can carry on and on without any real end point.

Ketan at ARC

Hi Simon,

That makes two of us regarding electronics.

In the earlier years we have come across the problem you have observed. Most of the time this was a mechanical assembly contact issue, but it did not create a main board failure. We have not come across this in the past five odd years. It was brought to light by a customer in those days. He went on to write an improvement article about it which was printed in an issue of MEW. Unfortunately I cant remember which issue the article was published in, or who the customer was. So I am unable to direct you to the said article.

Ketan at ARC

Lol Andrew . I have been on this forum since it’s birth. We have known each other on here for well over a decade now.

I have always respected your comments, even if sometimes I have failed to agree with them in specific contexts and expectations for specific hobby or light weight machines at specific price bands. As mentioned before in other threads in the past, you are privileged as your machines comprise mainly of old heavy weight industrial machines, rather than the type of machine being talked about in this thread. Where applicable, due to your extensive knowledge on electronics, you have also upgraded the electronics for some of your machines, and you are able to use much bigger cutters with related feeds, speeds, depths of cuts, suited to your heavier machines, which is outside the scope of these lighter duty machines. Most people here do not possess this knowledge of electronics, nor do they have machines which are in your arsenal. So in my opinion it would be wrong to encourage such conversation related specifically to this machine.

It is easy to comment by some about what the manufacturer did wrong in their build of a machine after a problem comes to light. It is also easy to say cheap components were used and people are entitled to their opinion. At times I too am guilty of making such comments.

In your specific case Andrew, you do know what you are talking about with electronics and I do bow down to your superior knowledge. If your comments are helpful in helping Nathan in this particular case, without getting into a fit for purse debate, well and good. 🙂

Either way, I too am aware that this is an open forum where everyone can debate. I appreciate this and I apologies for giving the impression that there is no interest in your explanation.

Ketan at ARC

Edited By Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 09:36:49

Hi Simon,

It is good to know that your 2006 version is running fine with the original - correctly programmed for torque board.

In my response to Naihan, I explained the issue with the small e-stop button. In your case, I am presuming that you have had no reason to change the small e-stop button. If my presumption is correct, then it suggests that your e-stop button is fine, and that you are using the estop button less, to stop the machine, and using the STOP button instead to stop the machine.

Unfortunately, due to improper training/knowledge/warranty claims, such distributors were automatically claiming on SIEG under warranty, without asking customers what happened, why it happened etc.. This was a wrong and stupid practice of such distributors as it would ultimately increase costs long terms due to their incompetence. ARC refused to honour many of such claims for the estop button, - on a case by case basis - after determining the cause through discussion with the customer.

To deal with this problem, the relay was removed from the control board, and the new bigger estop was used as shown in the link I posted earlier, resulting in removal of the relay from the board. The new switch is more expensive. So, not a cost cutting measure... but more of dealing with user related issues. The new customers ultimately paid more.

Ketan at ARC

Hi Nathan,

By 2013, the torque issue was well fixed. The small e-stop in itself tended to fail if over-used/abused. I do not know the correct electronics terminology, but in simple terms, it failed/seized/fused. This came to light when we started getting claims under warranty, or more requests for the e-stop switch as a component, from customers who were being trained to use the machine in the in-correct way by another company. In a small number of cases, the small e-stop button failed after correct use, but this was more prevalent in countries with 220v/240v power electricity. ARC is not an expert in electronics, but we do ask customers what happened, how it happened, resulting in specific failure. We then reported our observations back to SIEG. Hence earlier I stated the idea of failure of the e-stop switch due to incorrect use or the switch assembly itself.

The probability of the failure of the control board due to regular use/abuse of the e-stop is low. It might be a combination of events. e.g. its use with an abnormal overload event such as the mill being used hard beyond its capabilities- how heavy handed it is being used, or on dirty unknown material with many hard spots /hard material like boiler plate - shocking the system, and/or a spike/overload power supply event - dirty power - which are regularly seen though out the U.K.,, 260v+ for example (yes it does happen, and this has been discussed many times, as well as recorded at our premises, where all our computers/server are connected to dedicated UPSs). Usually, the machine stops.. in a way as to say... I have had enough. Some customers ignore this sign, and re-continue to abuse. However, the machine has its limited. If abused regularly by an individual or by a variety of knuckle heads in a heavy handed way, it will give up and damage the control board. If there is dirty power, especially on farms/rural areas in the U.K., we suggest that the customer invests in a simple plug - surge protector plug specifically for the machine. This will probably/hopefully - but not guaranteed - kill dirty power supply to the machine before such supply kills the board. If this happens, please be aware that such cheap surge protector plugs only work a few times, before they give up too. So changing such plugs after a couple of such events may be a good idea too.

There are electrical experts on this forum who will disagree with my comments, quote 'not fit for purse' - or refuse to accept what I say - quoting old is always gold, without understanding what the machine is all about, or without understanding the capabilities of the user or how the user used the machine. As I said before, ARC is not an expert in electronics. I can only make suggestions based on what ARC has seen. This does not mean that the machine is full proof. It only means that the user has a part to play in the story too. It would be wrong to just assume that the machine is cheap Chinese crap.

As your machine is second hand, it comes down to what do you really know about its history before you got it? As i said before, was the spindle torque low when you got it, or, did this result from an adverse event after you got the machine?, or was the board always faulty from the day the first buyer received it? - also possible.

Personally, I would suggest you consider the upgrade assembly of components, but you will need to take plenty of pictures before you cut/re-connect any wires, and/or involve a competent person to carry out the change. This will give you a more long term solution.

Ketan at ARC

Hi Nathan,

In SIEG numbering system, serial number 30901 can mean it could be 2003 or 2013, but in your case it means 2013, because SX3 model was born much later than 2003.

If you re-look on this page link, and combine it with the 'Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076' sticker, this would suggest that you have the old board. The old board has a Relay on the board. The new board does not have a Relay on the board.

• If you replace old board with new 'old type'Z1000-1 board with Relay, the set-up should work, and as long as you do not keep pressing the e-stop to stop the machine all the time, you will be okay. e-stop only to be used in case of emergency. To generally stop the machine, use the STOP button.
• If you replace old board with new Z1000-1A board, which does not have a Relay then you will also have to replace all the other components as stated in the link. Again, e-stop button for emergency use only.

So, you need to re-look at your board, take a picture and decide / re-confirm if it looks identical to old board or new board, i.e. old with relay or new without relay, and then decide what you want to do.

Hope above information helps.

Ketan at ARC.

My apologies for adding to the diversion on this thread too..

StephenS,

Thank you for the clarification.

If James at ExpressNet places an order for your machine directly with SIEG, he will find that the delivery will be around five months minimum if he is lucky. If you intend to make any deposit commitments on those assurances, please be careful.

I am also unsure about how successful he would be in delivering an order for one small machine, especially as the last communication he had with SIEG was in 2019. I also don't know if it would be viable for SIEG to ship one small machine.

There are a lot of delays at present for fulfilment of orders from all Chinese factories. Problem with deliveries from component suppliers. Some component factories are working on a three day week due to electricity supply shortage. Cast iron and other component costs increased by upto 15%, resulting in re-negotiations, all leading to delay in assembly. lack of containers available to book, lack of shipping space, congestion at ports be they in Shanghai or in U.K. case Felixstowe and Southampton, increase in shipping costs, all resulting in delays and increased costs, without real certainty on delivery schedules.

As a simple example, our team at ARC is offloading a 40ft. container today which has orders which were placed in October last year, January and April this year. Expected delivery was to be between April to July. The delay has been costly in many ways. Thankfully, ARC does not take advance deposits from customers.

In short, if something is available in stock near you, consider that option first. AUSEE in Melbourne Australia are also out of stock of SX2P, but they may have one or two pieces of SX2LF with R8 spindle left. I don't know what quote James gave you for SX2P for future delivery. You may wish to ask AUSEE to quote for the SX2LF version they have in stock. and compare. Alternatively there are other small size machines out there in other makes/brands, which you could consider if in stock near you.

Good luck.

Ketan at ARC

Last purchase made by ExpressNet from SIEG was in 2019. The translation of communication between them and SIEG led to presumptions at SIEG that they had closed. I guess that if ExpressNet is saying that they are open, then they are open.

Maybe ExpressNet have enough stock, so they have yet to place new orders onto SIEG? Difficult to say. All I can do is apologise for SIEGs presumption and my relaying that message earlier.

Ketan at ARC

Nathan,

I am a little confused.

You state that you contacted the closest distributor in another country.

• Which dealer did you contact? Was it AUSEE?..
• if you saw the parts on AUSEEs site, they appear to be some of the older parts rather than the newer parts as shown in the page link which I posted earlier.
• Depending on age of machine - based on serial number of the machine, you could replace old part with old part, and hope that the problem resolves and doesn't come back again. Or, you can refer to ARC page I have linked to, read it carefully and ask the supplier to give you the newer parts.
• If you have the old arrangement/board, and if you decide to consider to replace with the newer board, you will need all the components stated in the link. Check the control board currently fitted to your machine.

What ever you decide to do, take plenty of pictures before/during the dismantling/change over process, or ideally get a competent professional to carry out the work. As these are electrical components, they will not carry guarantee or warranty. There is no wiring diagram, and no supplier will be able to hold your hand or assist you through the installation process. There is next to zero knowledge or assistance on the Internet/forum to guide you through the process.

If you buy the wrong things without looking at the pictures of the boards/components, or without clear understanding, then chances of fizz, crackle, pop will be high. If things go wrong, this thread will then turn into a long discussion between you and others to figure out what went wrong,... a kind of situation with 'the blind leading the blind'..., especially as no one really knows which version of the SX3 you have... and quite frankly, with the greatest of respect... I honestly doubt that anyone on this forum is realistically qualified to be able to offer remote support or comment on the electrical assembly of the SX3.... and it is nothing to do with the machine being 'Made in China'... and the components are not cheap!

Ketan at ARC

I will check and let you know StephenS.

Ketan at ARC.

Just a general note...

In ARCs experience - specifically with brushless motors used on SIEG machines, the probabilities of the brushless motor developing a fault are extremely low.

A chap called Ned in U.S.A used/uses ? his SX3 extensively. He is one of few who has looked at an SX3 brushless motor - probably an earlier model - but I am presuming that the concept/principal/design remains more or less the same. Have a look at this link on his site.

Ketan at ARC.