Member postings for Ron Laden

Thanks clogs, I will have a look at those.

Ron

Hi Kaleb

You mention mounting the motor perpendicular to the axles, with drive shafts/gears etc you obviously can but why are you having to mount the motor at 90 degrees to the axles..? What are the dimensions of the motor you are  considering..? Also what are your ideas with regards to the the pivot movement of the bogies and the drive..?

Sorry this sounds like an interrogation but its not, its the same design problems I have been considering for when I start the twin bogie class 22. I do think though, with twin bogies 2 motors makes life easier with a motor fixed to each bogie, and the motor can be mounted parallel to the axles using either a gear or chain drive.

Regards

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 09/07/2018 13:34:39

Thanks guys for the info.

Jason, those Vallorbe files seem to be very close to the ones I had, thanks for that.

Regards

Ron

Hi Kaleb

Thanks for the link to the SMEX rolling resistance calculator, that will be useful and should certainly help put a design in the right ballpark.

Ron

I did have a couple of small thin files (not needle files), one medium and one fine. They were approx 150mm long x 15mm wide x 2mm thick but I have lost them both, cant find them anywhere.

I have searched on line but cant find anything similar unless I have missed them, any ideas on where I could get the same or similar. Ideally no more than 2mm thick but could just get away with 2.5mm max.

Thanks

Ron

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that, a lot of interesting and useful information and you are quite correct the design is a challenge. To the best of my knowledge there are no reference books that you can turn to and find all the answers. My 0-4-0 is a mix of what I,ve seen, what I,ve read, a bit of guess work and gut feeling. I am quite confident it will work but to what level I dont quite know. To be honest I dont really care too much as long as it doesnt really struggle along and is only capable of pulling one person, but I,m hopeful it will be better than that.

Its certainly been an interesting challenge starting with a blank piece of paper and I think I have learnt quite a lot. I guess it is a test bed really, finding what works and what does not and I will be better prepared for the build of the larger loco.

I think you have also answered Kaleb,s question as to using a single 24 volt 500 watt motor to haul 5 persons, sounds as if he should be fine.

Regards

Ron

Kaleb,

Something I forgot to say, I have been told that the claimed power for some of the motors is not correct. The quoted wattage is often higher than the motor actually produces, apparently it is the way they are measured which gives true or false readings. I read of a 24 volt 350 watt scooter motor (Chinese) that a guy had correctly tested and it only produced 240 watts, so a third less than claimed.

I cant confirm if this is true but it could put yet another complication into the equation. At the end of the day though all we can do is trust what is quoted is somewhere close.

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 08/07/2018 10:52:36

Hi Kaleb,

I am no expert either far from it, the 0-4-0 chassis I am building is my first attempt at an electric loco. I tend to go by the basic sums (and hope they are correct), the advice the guys have given me here and what I,ve seen and read, plus a bit of gut feel.

The 4 x 250 watt and 2 x 500 watt "should" draw about the same in power, in a 24 volt system around about 40 amps. I would think that a single 500w motor would handle 5 passengers and probably more but Perko will probably be able to confirm that. I have been told that the 4 x 12 volt motors (total 260 watts) I am using on the 0-4-0 should cope with 3 or 4 adults but the proof will be in the pudding..?

I am aiming at 6 to 7mph top speed which gave me a gear ratio of 6.25 motor to axle, but again there is a bit of hit and miss here as the motors I have run faster than what their spec says. This is unloaded though so again a suck it and see scenario.

I can see a single motor using drive shafts working ok but as you mention it is a more complicated and of course you have to allow for the pivot of the bogies each end.

Regards

ron

Well mine is a morning only shop at the moment, just checked @ 6.20pm and its still 84F in there, roll on winter...LOL

Sorry...decimal point...?, I meant to say 0.4 HP for a fit person.

Hi Perko,

I could be wrong but if we take 1 HP as approx 750 watts an average draft horse is capable of 15HP and a reasonably fit person capable of 4HP but as I say I could be wrong. I appreciate that more power is required to accelerate than to maintain a rolling speed but all things considered I think if you are aiming at pulling a dozen people with no issues then 1HP (750watts) would be about right.

regards

Ron

Hi Kaleb

Like you I would also like my class 22 to have some decent power, at the moment I am thinking a minimum of 1Kw (1.3 hp). I have seen a 5 inch electric loco with 2 x 500 watt motors pull 10 people with no problems, I like the idea of having the ability of carrying a good number of passengers.

I mentioned 4 x 24volt/250watt motors but I have also considered 500 watt motors, one for each bogie. I have thought of a few permutations regarding the drive. Single motor driving one axle with a chain or belt drive to the second axle, single motor driving both axles with a single chain drive direct from the motor, single motor driving both axles via gears. Also both bogies each having a single motor driving one axle via gears. I know that most powered bogies have all the wheels driven and obviously that is good for grip and traction. I cant see why a single axle drive on each bogie wouldnt work, I think it would. Depending on the build a 5 inch 24 volt twin bogie loco is going to be somewhere in the region of 60-70kgs so it wouldnt lack weight.

You mention 5 inch or 7.25 inch, obviously 7.25 inch would allow you quite a bit more space to fit everything in.

It will be interesting to know how you get on.

Regards

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 07/07/2018 10:22:23

Nige, I agree with Mick, the face goggle type are probably the safest to start with, your grandson probably wont think they are very "cool" but much safer than some of the newer "stylish" types which dont seem too safe to me.

Ron

A bit further on, I have made up and fitted the 3 aluminium frame spreaders and also the 4 steel tie bars. The motors are mounted on the axle via the motor mount plate. Picture 2 shows a mount plate sitting above the tie bars ready for marking off. With the axle having suspension the motors move with the axle so the mounting plate cannot be hard fixed to any part of the frame. The tie bars act as anti rotation stops for the mounting plate but the plate will have cutouts/slots at each end to allow the plate to move up and down with the sprung axle, hope that makes sense..?

Hi Nige,

It would be great to introduce your grandson to your workshop and you are obviously fully aware of the hazards in such a place. My experience is, despite telling them to ask before they touch anything, you need to watch them every second they are in there.

I have a small model room which houses a N gauge model railway and our great grand daughter who is five years old just loves to drive and watch the trains. Each time we go in there I always tell her that she must not touch or pick anything up without asking first and generally she is very good. One day we were in there and she asked if she could have some different wagons on one of the trains, she was standing along side me whilst I changed the wagons.

She said to me "what is this grampy" and when I looked she had picked up a Dremel which had a diamond cutting disc fitted. It still makes me shudder to think of it, she had reached over and picked it up off the modelling desk, thank goodness she didnt switch it on. Now quite clearly that was down to my stupidity, leaving a cutting tool within easy reach, something I normally never do as everything is put out of reach and cleared away, but that day I forgot.

Children are very inquisitive and it only takes a second for them to pick something up or even switch something on.

Sorry Nige, I,m not preaching just making the point of how you need to be overseeing them at all times.

regards

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 06/07/2018 15:08:08

Thanks Dave, the 10000 divided by diameter is easy to remember, that will be stuck in my head now.

regards

Ron

Thanks Mike and Andrew.

Well a lesson learnt there.

Thanks again

Ron

Morning guys,

I was up early this morning and had a couple of very pleasant hours on the minilathe.

Nothing too exciting but its so nice producing parts for the loco without having to rely on other people to get parts made. I made 4 chassis tie bars from 3/8" steel bar machined and faced to length and then tapped M4 each end. I then started on 4 suspension spring locators in 1/2" alu bar.

However yesterday was not so good, one of the steel loco wheels has some surface marks on the outer face, nothing too much but I thought I would take a couple of thou off the face to tidy it up. The wheel is a plain disc 82mm diameter across the tyre and it is pressed onto the axle which made it convenient for holding in the 3 jaw.

Using a new HSS knife tool I set about facing the wheel, I thought a 2 thou cut should be about right with maybe a second cut if needed. Being new to this I obviously didnt realise that the tool went blunt almost immediately and was just rubbing not cutting. I added another 2 thou but that just left rough marks on the surface so I stopped. On checking the tool sure enough it had lost its edge and had a rubbing mark down from the tip.

What did I do wrong...?

Was the speed wrong, I had it at 600rpm

I was cutting it dry as I thought with very light cuts it would be ok.

I had set the tool angle to the job so I dont think there was an issue there.

The same tool I sharpened and it was fine on both steel and alu parts I made this morning..?

Regards

Ron

From memory "I think" it takes 8.33 BTU,s to raise 1 gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit so to raise 3000 gallons by 1 degree F one would assume 24,990 BTU,s. To raise 3000 gallons to 24C..? well lets say an awful lot of energy, its a good job we dont have to pay for sunlight Dave...

Out of interest Dave what water temp can the Koi tolerate, I have always assumed that they are a cold water species.

Edited By Ron Laden on 05/07/2018 15:36:55

Hi Kaleb,

I dont know of any drawings re electric powered bogies but that doesnt mean to say there are none, I just dont of them.

I am in a similar situation, at the moment I am scratch building a 5 inch gauge small electric 0-4-0 but I have also started some sketches for my next project. I fancy a class 22 "Baby Warship" which has twin axle bogies. My thoughts at the moment is 24 volt driving 4 x 250 watt motors, one directly geared to each axle.

Perko mentioned both chain drive and direct gear drive, both of which are available from suppliers and both types work well. I have a leaning towards the gear drives, dont know why really but I seem to prefer gears over chains and sprockets.

What level of power are you considering as this obviously dictates the physical size of the motor and having the space to fit it to the bogie. However with chain drive you can have the motor mounted above the bogie frame which with gears its not so easy. The picture below shows the two motors geared to the axle on my 0-4-0 and these are just can motors but you can see how much space they take up. Should you be considering electric scooter type motors they are considerably larger than the ones shown in the pic.

Cheers

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 05/07/2018 14:37:23