Member postings for William May

I think the reason several people have copyrights on the same drawing is that they were copyrighted for first publication. I dealt with articles in "Live Steam" magazine, and their copyright was for "First Publication Only" meaning they had the rights to that article, but DID NOT own the plans, except as they were used in the article they paid for. The author still had the copyright on the original drawings.

Also, as you mention, things were more casual in the early days. LBSC may very well have granted permission for more than one entity to carry his plans and drawings. (I know his "Maisie" is carried by both GLR Kennions and Reeves, so they both must have had an agreement with LBSC.) I also know that the "Ayesha" plans were also supplied by Leewood Light Engineering of Australia, (I have a set of them) so apparently they had the rights as well. There could very well be several more individuals or companies with rights to publish LBSC's designs, even though they may not have done anything with them for the last 90 years. .

I can understand why LBSC would do that.

If ONE organization is not going to support your articles and drawings, then get SEVERAL, so you actually generate some income from your designs. LBSC had no other employment than as a writer on small locomotive design and construction, excepting his occasional articles on Christmas presents for little boys that he did every year. Unlike Edgar T. Westbury, who not only wrote articles, but also sold designs to the British government in WWII. (I have been told that all of his "STAR" engines such as Sirius, were designed for the British government and supplied to the resistance forces in Europe during WWII for communications, driving generators for radio systems. All you needed was wood or charcoal to fire your engine, and you could transmit messages, with no gasoline needed.) LBSC had no other outside sources of income other than his writing and designing.

I suppose that is what I will have to do. But it will have to wait until after I finish my Ayesha II project. I have searched quite a bit over the last 2 years, and only found a few entries for Petrolea. I understand that one individual had quite a site dealing with drawing errors, but I understand it is long gone.

Your suggestion about using "Fusion" and just doing it myself is an excellent one, and what I will probably eventually do.

I am glad I started with "Ayesha II" by Tony Weale, as so far I have not found any errors, and everything has gone to print. The set of plans if beautifully done. Also, his articles deal with every significant issue that one might run into. I could not recommend "Ayesha II" more highly, both as a historical project, and as a first project for a beginner.

My main issue is with the suppliers. Over the years, they certainly should have had time to make corrections as they became known. I understand that LBSC and other modelers were working in a much different time, and that there was a HUGE variation in workshop equipment. I am still reading about treadle lathes, which were widely used when these designs came out. Many people did not even have a micrometer to work with. That situation was very similar to what existed here in the U.S. at the same time. It was the depression, and no one had money to spend freely on locomotive projects. That these intricate projects even existed at the time is mind-boggling to me. Also, EVERYONE makes mistakes, (including myself). The point is the length of time it takes to get them corrected.

I will turn in my first corrections for LBSC's "Jenny Lind" when they are done. I don't want to just complain. I want to see actual change. Also, I want to see the information freely available, so that not everyone who takes on a project has to stumble through the same ancient obstacles.

Thanks for your feedback. I will look into taking a local course on CAD and see how much I can pick up.

Well, that is evidence that someone went through the design and straightened it all out. Too bad they didn't publish the corrections needed to make it a practical operating locomotive.

I am working on a drawing correction for LBSC's Jenny Lind right now. There are several needed, one dealing with the frame and cylinder mount, and another with the brake system on the tender. I will submit them here for posting, and also on the Model Engine Machinist Website in the U.S.

69 years since these were published, and they have not apparently been corrected in any way.

Pathetic, to put it mildly. . .

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Oh, GOODY! Stirring the pot!

I had hoped there will be a lot of comments on this!!

VERY interesting!

I was thinking about the print problem. If you corrected prints and started selling copies, I think you would be fine.

Doesn't the copyright holder have the rights?

YOU BET!

THEY HAVE THE COPYRIGHT ON A DESIGN THAT DOESN"T WORK!

If you correct all the errors, and copyright the new, corrected design, then YOU will own the copyright on THAT.

This would be one solution to companies that don't correct their drawings over long periods of time. They can't claim it is THEIR design, because it ISN'T!

THEIR design doesn't even function, and in many cases, cannot even be constructed.

I think if it went to court, their case would be pretty weak, considering the fact they never made any effort to correct errors or insure the design even worked. They demonstrated no actual interest or care in their design, so it would be a long legal stretch to show they really, really DID have an interest in their design if they never actually tried to make it work.

Just a thought.

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It ISN'T unhelpful and it is NOT non-practical advice, BR! Please don't be insulted!.

It is just something that would be beyond me, the same as re-engineering one of these locomotives from scratch. I am an excellent machinist, and can (and have) made nearly anything, but my engineering skills are very limited. I would have a hard time making ANY kind of modification to a valve gear set, for instance, since I have very little knowledge of what differing changes might do, and have only the fuzziest grasp of how they actually work in the first place. .

If I built the valve gear per the LBSC print, and it didn't work, I would be completely lost as to how it could be corrected. .

When someone tells me: "Here are the drawings from the Master, LBSC, now, look them over and improve them!" I would have no idea where to even start.

I am afraid the advice to "check every dimension" is not very practical. It would mean examining each part, and laying it against each other part. If I had skills at Autocad or something similar, I suppose it could be done, but it would take months to draw everything up, put it all into the computer and then run simulations to see where problems are at, and I have none of those computer skills, and no such computer program anyway, so that isn't going to work. .

I was really hoping that someone would have an already-compiled-list of the known big problems. I have been told that someone compiled such a list, but have not been able to find out where it may be.

I am aware of the boiler to frame fit. Also, the possible knocking of the crank pins. I am also concerned with valve gear errors that may make successful completion of an example of this locomotive impossible to do.

I think the number of part-built chassis around is a pretty good indication that there are some major problems. I just wish I knew what they were. I expect this to take me about 5 years to construct, so this project would be a major investment in time, along with all the castings, materials, boiler copper, etc.

I guess I can take it one step at a time, and try and check the next step dimensions before I go ahead, but I can foresee a lot of delays, while I do that, or in some cases, while I figure out the best way to accomplish checking things.

Sure wish the vendors would correct their prints. My set of drawings is only 2 years old, and is from Kennions. But the design has been around for nearly 80 years now, and things are STILL not right?.

Well, although it is not named Petrolea, it IS an LBSC GER T-19, so it IS the locomotive I am asking about. So at least ONE was successfully completed. I just wonder how much rework was involved.

Thanks very much!

About to start on an LBSC 3.5" gauge "Petrolea"

I have been told that LBSC never did build one of these locomotives, and that the drawings have a LOT of errors. I have tried searching for drawing error lists, and cannot find anything pertaining to "Petrolea"

Anyone here who has built one, or is building one, and has any advice?

Thanks for any help!