Member postings for Hnclad

I have 100 Model Engineer magazines from 1953. Lots of steam engine articles.

I live in Ontario Canada, anyone who would like them can pick them up at my residence.

If you are interested you can contact me at the email address below.

Email me at :- [email protected]

Dave.

Hi. I have some copies of The Model Engineer from the 1950's listed below.

Copy of Exhibition Souvenir Handbook and Guide.

49 copies - Early 1950's mixed dates, 1953-1955.

1956 binder complete 6 months, Jan. to June.

1958 binder complete 6 months, Jan. to June.

1951 binder complete 4 months, July to Oct.

Anyone who is interested can pick them up. I live in Canada, Province of Ontario. in the Peterborough/Lindsay area.

For more information contact me @:-

Email:- [email protected]

So, nothing wrong with the site, I was the problem. A little tired at 11pm is my excuse. Thank you Jason B. for correcting the image orientation. I had just re scanned the page correctly but no need to upload it now.

Success.

Before proceeding with my idea of making a 4 sided broach, (a lot of filing) I decided to give the D reamer I had made a try. I drilled a number 46 drill hole in a 3/8" dia. piece of BDS. and then broached it with a pivot broach to open up the hole. (I have a selection of broaches so I could risk spoiling one) I then opened up the tapered hole with the D reamer using a drop of cutting oil and it worked perfectly to my surprise. A careful use of the D reamer and the test piece was in position. The broach didn't seem to suffer any damage.

To Michael Gilligan's point, Timmins seemed to follow tradition fathfully. I made some changes. The plate pillars are fastened with #4ba. set screws rather than riveting. I also fastened the wheels with 10ba. set screws to a collet rather than riveting. I did rivet the wheels to the pinions as putting a collet on the arbor would mean moving the pinions, not a redesign I wanted to do.

Michael, take a look at the beak on the pallet, the hub is 3/16" dia. and the point of the beak is 1/8" from the centre. By my reckoning that means the tip of the beak is protruding 1/32". His dwg. makes it look a lot more.

To everyone who replied, thank you for the generosity of time and knowledge, I have learned a lot from you gentlemen.

Kind Regards.

David.

What is wrong with this site. I just spent half an hour typing a reply after signing in and clocked on add posting and it kicked me off and I had to sign in again and the post isn't there. I'll try again tomorrow.

Regards David

Hi

I was going to post a page from Timmins book showing the gathering pallet but only JPEG files are accepted and my files are PDF. I'll convert them and post later.

There are a lot of good ideas here. The use of the clock makers broaches is a consideration so I calculated the taper angle based on 1mm reduction in dia per 100mm of length. It worked out to be 35 minutes, quite a lot smaller that what Timmins wants. It raises the question of am I right in my assumption the 1 degree taper is the angle between the centre line and one side of the taper. The included angle would be 2 degrees.

My thoughts that the D reamer was too fragile led me down another path, that a 4 sided reamer/broach would be stronger. I'd like any feed back on my thoughts. I tilted the filing rest to 1 degree using a small digital level I use to set the angle of the blade on my saw table, it's not really accurate but that doesn't matter as I will use the reamer in the lathe collet chuck to set the cross slide using a dial gauge. As suggested a little Autosol would finish any imperfections.

Thank you for your patience, as suggested I'm probably over thinking this but I must get it right.

Kind Regards.

David.

Thanks one and all for your replies. I did make a 'D' reamer, the problem is that the thin end of the taper is 50 thou and the thick end is 60 thou as near as I can measure. The taper and the taper reamer were turned at the same setting. The problem for me was that the only available method I have to file to the halfway mark is a filing rest on the lathe and the reamer becomes very fragile as I neared the halfway and bent away under the pressure of the file. It took a long time and I am not sure that it is really a good job. It really needs a method of supporting the reamer along its length while filing.

I do have some pivot broaches but their angle is less than 1 degree (2 inclusive) I think they are 1mm taper per 100mm length. I also have some commercial taper reamers that would be small enough but these have a more obtuse angle, between 3 and 4 degrees inclusive. Since this has to be a locking taper I wonder if this angle would be suitable? I wonder is some someone with more knowledge on this matter could advise me?

Alan Timmins does mention that the original clocks had a square taper as someone mentioned but said that filing a square hole this dia. is difficult and I would concur. He changed his design to a round taper. I will scan the page in and upload it tomorrow.

I will take a look at Tracy's catalogue that I have and thanks for your help.

David.

Hi.

I am building Alan Timmins 8 day long case clock and at the point on the striking train where I have to fit the gathering pallet on the arbor. Timmins method is to use a 1 degree taper (2 degree combined). I have turned the taper on the arbor but stuck on how to machine the tapered hole in the gathering pallet which is 60 thou at the large end. I would like to hear from anyone who has built the clock or has similar experience and how they solved the problem.

Thank you.

David.

I have taken a video of the escapement in action but find that only JPG files can be uploaded. Can you help?

David.

In the workshop this evening I decided to go ahead and lower the pallet arbor. To do this in a way that changes nothing that cannot be reversed, I turned a recess under the head of the set screws securing the back cock. The recess width was the thickness of the back cock feet. I had calculated that a 5 thou deep recess would lower the pallet arbor at the 'scape wheel location by a thou. After each 5 thou. increment I reassembled the pallet arbor and checked for drop on the entering pallet. I reached a recess depth of 25 thou. but ran out of shop time so I have the clock running to observe the drop. I had intended to keep deepening the recess until the pallet jammed and will continue tomorrow. At this setting the action is smoother, the entering pallet and wheel tooth meet in a more gentle way, there is less drop for sure and more recoil. The idea to go ahead with this was given to me in Ifoggy's reply, that the minute hand should not move in a visible jump. The light bulb went on, the minute hand mimics the interaction (drop and recoil) between the escape wheel and the pallets. Thanks for that. I'll report back after further adjustments. I can only say I am shocked by what I found. I thought I had made the pallets as close to perfect as was possible.

Thanks for everyone for your help.

Regards. David.

Thanks to everyone who replied. I was extremely careful of the removal of metal at the end when the 'scape wheel finally cleared the pallets and the anchor oscillated. To test my accuracy while the wheel and pallets were set up in the simple depthing tool I closed the distance between the 2 arbors by 2 thou. and the mechanism jammed. So my dilemma is if I lower the pallet arbor surely it will jam on the wheel teeth, providing my depthing was accurate. I was very careful with the depthing, however I will machine some eccentric set screws and lower the back cock 5 thou to see what that does. Timmins suggests filing the screw holes in the back cock and then loosening the screws and tapping the cock to bend the fixing pins. This would be a last resort I think. As Ifoggy says there has to be some drop. As the exit pallet releases the wheel, a tooth and the entrance pallet are alined, so the wheel rotates as the entrance pallet drops it meets the incoming tooth. There is very little clearance between the entering pallet and the wheel tooth so I feel that any lowing will cause a jam. I must be missing something or being overly anxious. At this time the pallets have been hardened but the fixing pin holes haven't been drilled.

Regards David.

Hi.

I have just completed the going train of Allan Timmins 8day long case clock. I have set up the clock temporarily to observe the action of the escape wheel and anchor before progressing with the strike train and I have 2 questions. The first is "What constitutes excessive drop", my observation on the motion of the 'scape action leads me to think that there maybe excessive drop on the entering pallet, at least I have come to this conclusion based on the 'scape action on my previous clock, Wildings Elegant Skeleton Clock" which seems to have a smoother action. Although both the entering and leaving drop seem to be identical or very close, the entering pallet seems to drop heavily onto the 'scape wheel, or visa- versa .When I was filing up the pallets as I neared the scribe lines I cautiously filed each pallet until they released, I think I was as close as possible to perfection without risking a jam. A temporary paper hand on the 'scape wheel arbor shows some recoil but not much. This my second question how much recoil is enough and how do you measure it?

After depthing and assembling the 'scape wheel and anchor in the clock frames before attaching the pendulum, I put a little pressure on the 3rd wheel arbor and the escape wheel turned as the pallets oscillated just as they should. The clock has been ticking for 3 days without stopping and has the familiar tick-tock of a grandfather clock that I remember. I hate to start "adjusting" the drop if it is unnecessary and finish up damaging the escape mechanism. Any advice and guidance before proceeding would be appreciated.

Thank you David.

Sam.

Great CAD dwgs. Up front I'll say I know nothing about gear design or theory and my clock making knowledge is not much better. I have made 2 clocks Allan Timmins 8 day long case and Wildings Elegant Skeleton clock and at the moment I am again constructing Timmins long case clock.

Looking at Sam's charts on "pressure angles" I am surprised at how quickly that the angle of the power component is not acting directly in line the tangent of the pitch circle dia. i.e. theta is not zero! in other words there are reaction forces so that only part of the power force is actually driving the gear train, the other reaction force would be acting on the pivots, creating friction and wear. This gets worse as the tooth completes one cycle.

It is making me wonder how accurate do I have to be with my depthing since the pc will not line up for long anyway.

It was always my assumption that cycloidal gears were used because there was a rolling action keeping the pc.in contact for most of the cycle.

Help me out here, and tell me what I am doing wrong.

Thanks David,

To Joe and everyone else, your enthusiasm and help is much appreciated. I should have made myself clearer in my last post. I said due to the age of my computer it could break down. Last week when I started the computer up to try some of the suggestions I was greeted by an error message. <windowsroot>\system32\hal.dll I phoned my local computer repair shop where the technician told me the problem was most likely a failure of the mother board or the hard drive and the standard charge to determine which was $40. So I have to pay $40 to decide if I want to pay hundreds of dollars for a mother board or hard drive and I would still have an indexer that was over indexing. It was an easy decision. Again i have appreciated your help. David.

Hi Joe, first let apologize for my delay in replying. We have had a late winter storm here in Ontario that has lasted 4 days. We were12 hours without electricity yesterday. Today Tues. I spend all day reattaching the snow blower to my tractor and moving 8 inches of slush and ice off my driveway so we can go food shopping tomorrow. I have read your lengthy post several times, and I think I have my answer. That is, it is probably the software that is causing the extra indexing problem. I am happy with that assessment. I think considering the age of the computer (15 years!) I use which has a printer parallel port and Windows ME software I should upgrade to a more modern system that has been generously proposed on this forum. My old computer could fail at any time. I have my answers and thank you for your help, I think we should end this thread as everyone else seems to have done. David.

Hi Joe your explanation of how a stepper motor works was appreciated. I'll try to explain more clearly my last post. First before the indexing program can be used you have to input the indexing reduction. This is in 2 parts, first is the actual dividing head 1:60 the second is the gear belt or timing belt reduction. In my case this was 1:3 (16 teeth to 48 teeth) this part allows you to use the stepper motor to drive the dividing head. It's easier than building a direct drive. The brass worm wheel and hardened screw on the dividing head are manufactured parts as are both of the gear belt and pulleys. I can't see how there can be any fault here. Once that is put into the program you are asked to put in the number of teeth or indexes. I entered 96 teeth and then indexed 96 times, the dividing head rotated a full turn plus a little bit extra, about half a tooth thickness. That is what I meant when I said the although the lowest steps on the driver is 400 and according to you that should only index the dividing head halfway round. It didn't and it actually went half a tooth past the last index, which I assume was an accumulation of a small error on 96 teeth or indexes. I can't explain that any other way.

Hope this helps. David

Hi seems I was unable to add more text after attaching the photos. To answer one last question from John about the ability of the software to index odd number of index's that would use a partial step. The software has the ability to account for this by adding or reducing the number of steps so that a complete rotation is accurate. Hope that makes sense.

As Joe remarked, all spelling mistakes due to the elderly must be forgiven. I think I can give you a few years Joe, I was born and bred in the steam era, started work in 1959, 5 year engineering apprenticeship and as my email says a H.N.C. lad. Loughborough College of Further Education.

Kind Regards. David.

Hi. Thank you all for your input, I have uploaded some photos to my album, I hope they help. Wildings clock was my second clock, I had constructed Allan Timmins long case clock a few years before. I used a direct indexing plate on the head stock spindle of my Myford ML7 to cut the wheels and pinions. I am familiar with the possibility of a single point cutter causing enough vibration to move the wheel blank. I always use multi tooth cutters from Thornton Successors. I like the direct indexing plate as it offers good locking during machining, Something I worry about with cnc. Also with cnc. you have to make provisions for backlash. That being said it could be handy for the odd weird numbered wheel count not on my index plate. To answer Joe's question on a large wheel blank giving a wrong wheel count. The software program I have provides the number of index's required, no more, nor less, so a larger blank would have thicker teeth since the cutter width is fixed and visa versa for a smaller wheel blank.

I have attached a phot of the connections for the driver & motor using bipolar configuration. There is also a photo of the stepper motor data. I pulled the motor apart, there are 8 coils on what I call the stator. The iron core of each coil has grooves machined in it that seem to match the "teeth" on the rotor. Does this make it a micro stepping motor? John Haines assertion that since the driver's lowest step count is 400 and the normal count 200 steps it would seem that I would have to double the wheel count. That wasn't necessary and I have no explanation for that. After I cut the wheel with a thin tooth I mounted an aluminum disk in the lathe chuck coated in layout blue. Using a scriber in the tool post I marked every index for a 96 tooth main wheel. At the end the final index had over shot the first line. I can only assume that there is some incompatibility between the driver I have and the software which was written for a different driver.

Hi To answer your question Joe the motor was wired as bipolar series. The phase connection being the terminal ends of the coils were connected to the A+/A- and B+/B-. The centre taps of the coils were connected separately for each pair of coils and insulated. The 18vdc was connected to the appropriate terminals on the driver. That's pretty straight forward. The step/pin8 was connected to pulse+ connection and the dir./pin9 was connected to the dir. connection. Pulse- and Dir.- were connected to pin 20/gnd. There was no 5volt connection. I am creating an album so I can upload photos of this set up and data sheets etc. but please be patient. This is a busy time for me. The weather is perfect for felling dead and dying trees that me and the wife marked last year. After felling they have to be bucked into fire wood lengths, split and piled for drying for next winters fire. It doesn't leave much time for me to get in the workshop or on the computer.

I should explain how I got to this point. 5 years ago I started construction on Wildings Elegant Skeleton Clock, I came across a construction of a cnc. set up for a dividing head, this included the software to run it. The constructor had used a circuit board which he modified, I was interested in the project but was too busy with the clock to start soldering a board. Another amateur clock maker had built the project using a motor and driver from Arc Euro and said it worked fine. I visited their site saw they had a motor and driver on sale and bought them knowing absolutely nothing about stepper motors or drivers. Fools rush in etc.The original constructor used a unipolar motor out of a photo copier so I though I should use a the motor I had in that configuration but quickly realized I couldn't mix 2 power sources. I also realized that 18 to 50 volts was a high voltage for a driver circuit board so it must also run the motor. I was stuck, so since I had already paired the centre taps I would insulate them switch on the 18v. power and see what happened. The motor turned and I was elated. But, when I cut my first wheel/gear the last tooth was very thin and other teeth seemed thinner than they should be. My notes from that time didn't record what settings I used for the steps but I pretty much tried all of them. I never solved the problem and anxious to move on with the clock I put the parts in a box, in corner. Although I moved on I never forgot about the project and when I joined this forum recently I thought I was a good opportunity to see if I could solve it.

Hope this explains things a little better.

Regards David.

Hi, apologies for not getting back sooner, other chores have been piling up while I have been playing with stepper motors.

The information that you guys have given me was enough for me to wire up the driver/motor with confidence and see if it worked. There are other things I still have to absorb about stepper motors.

The driver and motor are set up my work bench, my index head is on the lathe doing other work, so to answer Joe's question of did I get a 360 rotation with the dip switch set of the 400 steps on the driver, I did. I have a piece of electrical tape on the motor shaft and it made a complete turn but I cannot verify accuracy until my lathe is freed up.

To answer Joe's question, can I index the motor at 10rpm. I cannot, the software doesn't have this feature. There is a "Goldilocks" slider that sets the speed at not too fast and not too slow, in the sweet spot the motor runs smooth and quietly.

I'm going to leave it there for now, it works, I just have to verify the accuracy. I want thank everybody who has shared their time and knowledge helping me to not only get the motor and driver working but also the amount of knowledge I have learned. Thanks a lot.

Kind Regards

Dave

At the moment we have a light snow fall and zero degrees. This is spring in Ontario.

Hi. I have been away from the computer most of the day, so the latest posts are a lot to absorb.​ I have scanned the data sheet for the motor and driver. If some one can tell me how to attach them to this message I'll upload them.

Joe, thank you for the lengthy explanation it will take me a while to absorb this and see what is relevant to my situation. As you have pointed out I may not need the 5vdc.

Here are the pin numbers to be used from the printer port supplied by the constructor.

Pin 8 to step.

Pin 9 to dir.

Pin 20 to grnd.

John Haines has raised a curious thing that bugged me when I ran the stepper motor as a bipolar motor. When indexing a full turn the indicator needle on my indexer did not return to the starting position. I'll leave it there for now.

Dave