Hi fizzy,

Not my stays! just some advice to oliv and the boiler issue on their loco.

Hi neil,

Good point made on making the solder brittle, but in both cases I meant for the stays to be removed anyway, then nuts put back in then soldered after cleaning. However I do agree that the best method is to remove what is there currently and replace with fresh material but would add that personally I would silver solder then comsol over the top of the stays if I had any concerns with the joint.

Oliv,

3.5" gauge track isn't common in France or you just don't have a track yourself? Unfortunately I can't help with regards to comsol having never used it myself. I would be interested to see some pictures of your restoration project if you have any?

Cheers,

Dan.

Hi Oliv,

It is still ok to nut the firebox stays but only really used as a method to hold the stay and the plates in place for silver soldering. You might be lucky be able to clean around plate and the nut and silver solder them in. Alternatively if you can remove the stays you have currently then I would do that and stick new rivets in and silver solder without the nuts, that seems to be standard practice- of course check with your boiler inspector about your plan of action!

The Juliet boiler is a relatively simple thing and is easy enough to make, I have a full kit to do a boiler and started to put it together but the pro one came along so had no need to bother with it, pure luck and "right place, right time". I might get round to it one day for a part built Juliet chassis I already have but other projects must come first, as is usually the case!

It's interesting to hear of people following the thread, I like to think that it's of some use to someone out there. I felt that as a pure beginner to loco building that just following the ME articles wasn't really enough (and is a bit outdated coming from 1947!). Maybe it will help someone make a quick an easy job of the build as well as encourage them to make a few personal changes to get the loco how they want it, I know I've added a few personal changes or because of material/equipment limitations.

Good luck with your engine Oliv!

Cheers,

Dan.

A fair few progress pictures have been uploaded to my Juliet build album, but here's a couple so you know what to expect:

Cheers,

Dan.

Edited By Dan Jones on 29/09/2016 19:46:42

The last event of the rally season has come and gone for me now so I have no reason to play with traction engines for a while, which gives me a bit of extra time to get on and finish the Juliet. (Although the purchase of an Aveling steam roller has given me an incentive to hurry up and finish the loco so I can start work on that)

The Juliet has been on a few travels recently, making appearances at the Bristol Model Eng Exhibition and at the Great Dorset Steam Fair in the model tent.

There's been a fair bit of milestone work carried out since the last report, mainly the finishing of the side tanks. The top covers have been cut to length and shape. I made up some square rings (rounded corners) for the tank lids out of strips of brass sheet by annealing then some awkward pulling and pushing around a small wooden former trying to get the corners to form nicely and keeping the ring square in all 3 planes. I then cut the excess material off and silver soldered the two ends together in a butt joint. These turned out fairly well and remained largely uniform.

Next I made the lids themselves out of brass sheet and chamfered one end to help with silver soldering on the hinge. I made the hinges out of brass bar with a 1/32" hole through. The hinges are in three sections, with two being soldered onto the ring and one soldered onto the lid to fit between the two on the ring.

Since the lid assembly was complete, I decided to drill the tanks with tank tops in situ with four 8BA holes along both edges of each tank. The holes were drilled through the tank top into the brass angle underneath. The tank tops were drilled with a clearance drill, then a tap was run through the hole in the brass angle and the tank top was countersunk to accept the screws. Once this had been completed, I worked out where I wanted the lids to go and set to milling the holes out to fit the lid rings. A 3/8" slot drill was used to do this as it fit the radius of the rings quite neatly. After this was finished, the rings and the tank tops were cleaned, fluxed and soft soldered so that the rings protruded roughly 6mm above the surface of the tank top. In order for the tank tops to fit flush to the tanks, a recess needed to be cut into the brass angle to let the bottom protrusion of the ring to come through. These recesses were filed out until the tank tops fitted.

Once the main structure/assembly of the side tanks was completed, I then finally fitted the hand pump (one of the very first things I made for the loco). To find the right position, I placed the pump in the tank with the handle positioned 90° vertically and so that at this point it was in the middle of the ring. Its position was marked and 2x 4BA holes were drilled into the hand pump base and clearance holes drilled through the bottom of the tank and through the running board.

Since the hand pump was now in and I had a spare few minutes, I marked out where I wanted the union to go (the one that carries the feed from the hand pump, through the tank wall and to the clack valve). This was marked out, drilled and tapped 1/4" x 40. The short piece of pipe work between union and clack was then bent and fitted and is now on the bench waiting to be silver soldered.

Plumbing preparations have been made to the LH tank (axle pump) by drilling and fixing the bypass valve to this. My plan is to make a 90° double union to screw onto the axle pump outlet to connect to the axle pump and the bypass valve. I have made a 90° single union for the bottom of the axle pump for the feed from the side tank.

I have planned for the RH tank to be dedicated just to the hand pump and the LH tank will be just for the axle pump rather than having a balance pipe to connect the two as is described in the ME articles.

The rest of the plumbing will be finished off, the tanks will get silicon sealed and the fitting on the grate/ashpan will follow in due course.

Pictures will be uploaded to a new album as I can't seem to edit the other two.

Cheers,

Dan.

I have sent you a PM

Cheers,

Dan

Neil,

Can't get as far as attempting to upload pictures, this is trying to get to the page to allow me to choose which pictures I want to upload

Dan

Rally season has set in so I've been busy get my 4" traction engines about which unfortunately has meant quite a slow in Juliet progress.

However progress is progress...

I've completed the smokebox door assembly; the hinge straps have been cut, had the ends rolled over (harder than it looks if you want neat results), bent to suit the contour of the door and have been drilled and riveted on with 1/16" dome head copper rivets. The copper rivets stand out nicely on the bright steel and I'm almost tempted to only paint the door and not the straps and rivets.

The hinge lugs were turned from square-section steel, rounded/shaped and threaded 5BA to screw into the smokebox door ring and drilled through to take a 1/16" dia. hinge pin. The hinge pin (not really described in the build articles or on the drawing) was made from 3/16" dia. BMS to a total length of 1 5/8" with the head of the pin being 3/16" x 3/16" (length of the pin without the head being 1 7/16".

The smokebox door ring was silver soldered into the recess in the smokebox. The petticoat pipe was also made from a length of copper tube and one end was expanded from 3/4" dia. to 1" dia. by heating the tube and squeezing it in a vice with a necked socket in one end. This was press fitted into the hole in the top of the smokebox. The chimney was also bored out to be a snug fit on the petticoat pipe so no ugly fixings will be required, I'm sure as long as the loco doesn't end up upside down I won't lose the chimney.

I have also made a blast pipe jet, it's made to the drawing however when talking to a Juliet owner at my club he says he has a much smaller jet screwed onto his blast pipe. I suppose only time will tell if bigger is better!? (the advantage of having screw-on/off blast pipe and blower jets!). All of the front end plumbing has been completed and dry fitted for testing of which it passed with flying colours.

I air tested the engine, with the frames up on blocks, by screwing a pipe to one of the clacks for the air line to fit on. The pressure gauge worked, all the back head valves worked (blower valve doesn't seat fully but not overly fussed about it), the regulator did what it was supposed to, and most of all the wheels turned until the air ran out. Something must be working correctly internally and in the front for air to get from the boiler to the cylinders and make them work!

For a quick check, I brushed around the engine with a solution of washing-up liquid and water to check the air-tightness of the valves and joints. Soldered joints were good apart from a slight hairline in the dome cap, so not a terrible thing to sort. Water glass needs some tampering with to get it to seal up fully and the majority of the front end pipe work leaked although none of it has gaskets or PTFE tape/jointing compound on it so I'm sure they will be fine when I do the final assembly.

So now its a case of sealing up the side tanks, fitting the hand pump, fitting the plumbing to the axle pump and sorting out the fixtures for the grate and ash pan. She'll then be ready for a bit of steam, exciting stuff!

Pictures will be uploaded shortly!

Cheers,

Dan.

I've had a similar problem to this, and it has happened twice now.

Each time I try to add pictures to my album I get reverted to a white screen with:

Page Not Found

The page you requested cannot be found.

Click here to go to the homepage

The first time it happened I just created a new album to upload latest photos but it's a bit of an inconvenience, is there anything I can do to allow me access the normal page to upload photos?

I can view the album but I can't edit album info or edit photos, the same page and message appears both times.

Cheers,

Dan

Edited By Dan Jones on 04/06/2016 17:24:16

Pictures have been placed in a new album called Juliet Build Diary Update Replacement. Can't seem to update the original album, "Page Not Found" is all I get.

Dan

Juliet news...

Been about 2 months since the last post but it hasn't been spent just lazing around (at least not all of it!).

I have been fitting a selection of my pre-made components with the hope of air testing the engine through the boiler.

First to be fitted was the regulator described in my last post. To start with, I made a gasket to go between the backhead bush and the regulator boss. I was hoping to use a set of punches to create the holes for the studs in the gasket material but I misplaced these (they didn't turn up until the job was done the hard way!). So I set to making the holes with a small drill between finger and thumb. I used a Rocol Graphite paste (mix with cylinder oil to prevent it setting hard, makes breaking the seal easier when required) as a jointing compound on both sides of the gasket and fitted this. The internal pipework for the regulator is wrapped with PTFE tape fairly tightly so not expecting much of an issue there, but I'm always cautious of the results with jointing compound and gaskets, particularly on smaller models.

I fitted the wet header next, which was fairly straight forward. A gasket has also been made to go between this and the superheater boss ready for fitting.

The next component put on was the dome which was quite simple because the same process applied to this as it did to the regulator, but again it will be interesting to see if my gasket making skills are anything to be desired.

I fitted the backhead fittings such as the fire hole door hinge and latch, blower valve, steam turret, water gauge fittings and blow down valve. These fittings were all put in with PTFE tape. In order to pressurise the boiler and run the engine from it, I had to fit pipe work from the turret to the blower valve, the pressure gauge and the steam pipe from the superheater elements to the steam tee. I finished making the union which connects the two together and I spent a bit of time make the nipple to fit on the end of the pipe and inside the union (these components aren't well specified in the drawings so some CAD time was spent to sort this out).

The hole in the top of the smoke box for the petticoat pipe has been drilled (with a 3/4" slot drill). This is ready for a petticoat pipe to be fitted but I haven't quite gotten round to it yet, nor have I bored out the chimney casting.

I've made the blower pipe and nipple, a more tedious task than it first seems. The blower consists of a 5/32" pipe with a nipple on the end which points up the chimney in which there is a No. 70 hole drilled for the steam to pass through. My little Myford ML7 doesn't quite have the speed range to accommodate such small sizes so a very nice Hardinge tool makers collet lathe was used. Currently the blower is bent up too high so required some minor adjustment.

The engine is more or less ready to be run on air through the boiler after a bit more silver soldering of small pipe work.

All photos of updated work are in my Juliet Build Diary album so go in there if you want to have a look at the work carried out.

Cheers,

Dan

Another progress update!

Not a huge amount of progress but something all the same.

I've managed to get the boiler through the hydraulic test; tested to 180psi for a working pressure of 90psi, although in reality the engine will probably only need to be run at about 80psi.

During some "in-between" time, I made a foot plate and a front cover plate to fit between the frames. The front cover plate has had the lubricator lid riveted to its underside to make for easy removal when the smoke box is in place.

My main concentration for the past couple of weeks has been the regulator. To any body who might have been following the thread will know that the regulator I'm making is the screw type, close to what is in the "Rob Roy" loco rather than the traditional "disc in a tube type" specified in the drawing for "Juliet". The regulator next on my priority list to get finished so I can get it in the boiler and start assembling the boiler and fittings ready for plumbing and then steaming.

I made all of the main components for the regulator last year and have been fitting them all together and trying to make sure I get everything lined up when I solder it together so everything fits when I assemble it in the boiler. To start, I silver soldered in the screw barrel into the regulator tube. I drilled a 1/8" hole in the side of the tube roughly where the middle of the screw barrel would be. I then scored a shallow groove into the screw barrel at the point where it would line up with the hole just drilled (the idea for this is to capture flux for soldering as when inserting the barrel into the tube, any external flux will be pushed off). I fluxed the parts, inserted them in the right position, stuffed some more flux down the hole and silver soldered the components.

Next up I fitted the valve seat that the screw needle seats on. I fitted the needle into the barrel to get the right distance to locate the valve seat then chamfered the edge of the valve seat (to accept the silver solder). this was then soldered in accordingly.

To attach the regulator handle to the valve needle I made a connector sleeve. I've soldered the connector to the handle and am going to work out the correct place for the handle and needle to be aligned so I can solder the two together in the right place so the handle sits in the right place in the cab.

I have drilled and tapped the regulator boss and the section of tube it fits into. I tapped it 8BA and fitted 2 countersunk screws, one top and one underneath.

This morning was spent air testing the assembly and connecting it to the chassis. This was mainly to see whether or not the outlet hole which the needle seats on was large enough to supply the cylinders but it is fine. I also made sure that the screw thread was coarse enough to give enough valve movement with half a turn of the handle. It turns out that at 60psi and half a turn of the handle, the chassis does run at a fair speed.

Last week was my birthday for which I received a chimney casting and a nice shiny whistle so they will be duly fitted!

Photos of recent progress will be uploaded shortly.

The next jobs will be to fit the regulator, boiler fittings and superheaters to the boiler and get them steam tight ready for the first steaming, and finish of the side tanks so I can fit the hand pump and plumb the lot in.

New update for the Juliet....

Firstly, loads of pictures of my recent (6 months ago to yesterday- "recent" have been uploaded into my Juliet album so have a look in there.

The Juliet has had the smoke box saddle fully fabricated and put together and the smoke box has been drilled along with the saddle so everything bolts together and onto the chassis.

The regulator has been fully machined and is waiting to be finished off ready for steam after the hydraulic test is passed.

The grate and ash pan have been made and can now be fitted to the boiler/frames ready for a fire to be dropped in.

I have sil. soldered the clack valve bushes into the boiler barrel, finished the super heaters and made a good start on the steam inlet/exhaust pipes. I'm waiting until I've got a pass certificate for a hydraulic test before I finish any plumbing or finish fitting the regulator.

I've made and fitted a set of plugs and a blanking plate for the boiler ready for the hydraulic test this Friday. The boiler went through its preliminary hydraulic test at home yesterday. I rigged the boiler up to a pressure gauge and the tender of a 5" Stirling Single. The pressure wasn't holding because of a couple of leaks in the pump system and the clack wasn't holding pressure, but I managed to get a pressure of 200psi for stints of about a second on a few occasions with no leaks, just a couple of bolts starting to produce a little bead of water on the dome blanking plate. Over all I'm very pleased with the result and happy for the test on Friday to go ahead with the club inspector and the proper kit.

Once the hydraulic test is complete I can finish and fit the side tanks, make all the plumbing and get ready for the first steam test.

Lastly, I have cut out the cab plates and now waiting for some folding bars to become available so I can bend the sides up and form the flanges.

Dan

My boiler inspector made the same comment regarding the number of stays. Understandably my boiler inspector mentioned that with that amount of stays there should be no issue with a 110psi working pressure. The number of stays is the same for both the steel and copper versions of the boiler. When you say plastow designs are dated, these drawings were revised in about 1974....

Replied to your PM Jason

What I described in my last post was the comparison between the copper boiler on my engine and the drawing for the copper boiler for this design. You can see in a couple of posts above the drawing for the steel boiler which is in fact a very good design for a steel boiler. The design for the copper boiler, as far as I can see, is also very good. H R Plastow has thought through these designs well in my opinion.

I should mention that on Friday I found a drawing amongst the build notes (couldn't see why it was there so presuming mistake) for the copper boiler for this engine. The drawing is exactly the same to the boiler apart from two things: no smoke box tubeplate washout (listed as optional on the copper boiler drawing) and the boiler doesn't have a mudlid in the side of the barrel which the drawing specifies, although note is made that a dummy mudlid may be soldered to the barrel.

Also on the same day (after discovering the drawing) I spoke to my boiler inspector who studied the drawing and confirmed that it would be fine for 110psi with ramsbottom safety valves, which has put my mind at rest on the boiler side of things.

Just in need of the safety valve details now.

Thanks,

Dan.

Does anyone have a detailed drawing of the ramsbottom safety valve for the 3" Plastow Fowler R3 road loco or have the actual they wouldn't mind measuring?

The drawing I have states a couple of details but not enough by far that I could make it.

Thanks,

Dan

Relevant pictures of the engine regarding above ^ :

I can (however reluctantly) strip back the engine to get the bare boiler ready for inspection.

Is there a formula/formulae for working out a working pressure tolerance for boilers? If I could work out the tolerance then the boiler inspector could check this and suggest an safe working pressure within the tolerance?

I would think that at 110psi I would be struggling to achieve true compounding

Julian,

Am I right in thinking that John Ellis is or is related to the Bishop-Ellis label?

If I could get his number that would be great. Perhaps it was worked out that only 80psi was required? (I doubt this).

I'm not sure what drawing has been used to build the boiler but there are some distinct differences between my boiler and the boiler in the drawing, such as my boiler is copper and sil. solder construction, the drawing shows steel and welding; my boiler has a single blow down valve at center-bottom of the back head whereas the drawing shows two plug on the back head (one on each corner) and two mud lids in each corner of the throat plate with a large mud lid in the side of the boiler barrel.

In reality, the drawing for the boiler shows a great spec for the model, only addition I would make is remove the bottom tube and replace with a wash out plug in the smoke box tube plate.

My 4" A7 has a WP of 110psi and the typical Fowler ramsbottom's cope and perform brilliantly so I have no doubt why they shouldn't be able to be used on this boiler. Only doubt is coming from the note on the boiler cert.

Dan

Hi guys,

Hi Malc,

Don't throw anything in the bin! I'm assuming you have an MJ Engineering design 3" Fowler? Certainly join a local model engineering group or sign up to Traction Talk, plenty of specific advice from boiler inspectors there.

If the engine was built in 1991 and has no evidence of a boiler cert then I would be tempted to borrow a hydraulic test kit and have a go yourself at pressurising the boiler yourself, just to see what happens. If it stays dry then there's no reason no to steam test it. Remember, a hydraulic test is at twice working pressure which must hold for a minimum of 10 minutes without a significant drop in pressure or and buckling or structural failing of the boiler.

The boiler inspector will require a boiler serial number, usually stamped at the bottom of the back head or on a plate stuck on top of the fire box on the outer wrapper. If there's no serial/ID number then I believe you're able to put your own stamp on it but I can't be sure? One of the boiler geniuses will be able to tell you on here.

With regards to a steam test, the safety valves also need to lift or feather just before the pressure reaches working pressure. The pressure must hold at not more than +10% of the working pressure otherwise the safeties will have to be adjusted (which is a nice job to do whilst in steam with a fowler!).

Finally, modern regulations state you need at least 2 methods of getting water into the boiler. Be it by mechanical pump and injector, twin injectors, mech pump and hand pump or injector and hand pump or a combination of all 3! So make sure you've got them and make sure they work!

Hope some of this helps!?

Regards,

Dan