Member postings for Crabtreeengineer

One area the taper turning attachment cannot be beaten on a non CNC lathe is in cutting tapered threads such as BSPT or NPT. Very easy to do with a taper turning attachment, next to impossible without. I also find that when working between centres some tapers require considerable re jigging of the tool post & tool over hang to ensure that the compound slide clears the tail stock. On some tapers I have had to resort to us much as two inchs of tool over hang to clear the tail stock...not ideal! This problem does not occur when using the taper turning attachment as a standard tool post set up can be maintained.

Hi Bob, thanks for that at least you have confirmed my thoughts. I intend using it on a coventional manual capstan lathe so it seems to me I need to rig up some sort of corresponding spigot on the main spindle to match up & latch onto the dog on the front face of the polygon box. It needs to be adjustable, allow for forward movement & be easiely swung out of the way so that other turret based tools can be used without clashing with the chatwin drive. Thanks again & regards R

Hi there, I have just latched onto a Chatwin Polygon box. Does anybody out there remember how these things are to be driven? It has some sort of dog on its front face that could be driven from the work piece, but it also needs to slide. Bearing in mind these are a production tool, there must be a standard & indeed quick method to drive them. Any ideas? Regards R

Hi guys, I know I have come this thread a bit late, but heres my two cents worth! Most burst calculations are based around Barlows equation. If I calculated this I would use UTS & apply my temperature correction on this value before calculating further. I would take a nominal ambient temperature of around 24 degrees C & calculate my temperature offset from that. Then plug that into Barlows equation. I note that some of the equations quoted seem to incorporate a temperature factor into the entire equation. This may well be one reason there is such large descrepancies. Regards R

I always think that its important to get a balanced view of these things! I trade a lot on Ebay & in the main I am just amazed at the honest people out there who are either looking for a bargain or to turn a buck. I have sold stuff all over the world from Japan, Australia to Europe & from a sellers perspective I have to say that the deck is very much stacked in the sellers favour! Some people bid on items with no intention of buying & the seller often gets stiffed with fees. Items are sent back for no other reason than the seller has changed their minds, often the packaging is so badly damaged on return that the seller can no longer sell as new. Claims are made of non delivery when you know full well you mailed the item & suspect the buyer is stringing you along just to get the item for free & don't even get me going on Ebay charges which even run to a percentage of postal costs. The only real recourse a seller has is to block the buyer, but even buyers are changing their ID's faster than I change my socks! The bottom line is that a seller has to cover their risks somewhere & as with the cost of theft from a high street shop, these risks are reflected in higher prices, which again only adds to the coffers of Ebay. One way around all of this is to use Ebay to select the items you want & once you have a relationship with a reputable vendor, for repeat business deal with that vendor outside of Ebay....prices will be cheaper! Check out my Ebay listings for quality items from Groz. Regards R

Recently I took on a mission impossible job that involved cutting keyway slots in seven hardened gear wheels. A broach would not look at the job & the teeth just ran smooth on a square file!

I found a work around by roughing out with a small Dremmel & then cleaning out the corners to full size using a HSS cutter in an old hand powered Adept shaper.

The Adept is pushing 100 years old yet I wouldn't dream of parting with it, worth its weight in gold! Get one if you can.

I have it set up to the centre height of my rotary table & set them both up on a milling table.

Regards R

Hi Martin, no not one of the more well known UK suppliers but direct from Hong Kong! You make a good point....it may be worth a try to harden them before I chuck them in the bin!

Regards R

Boy & Gals, just bought three blacksmith drills off Ebay 28mm, 30mm & 32mm all reputed to be of High Speed Steel.

Nothing like HSS, will not even touch mild steel.

Buyer beware.

Regards R

I would not recommend going down the "Don't pay the next renewal route"

I went this way with a "Readers Indigestible" magazine subscription.

They hounded me for months on end, threatened me with debt collectors...the lot!

In the end I had to pay another years subs because I had not formally advised them I didn't want to renew!.Still they sent me magazines!

I eventually sent them two letters per week for a month advising I didn't want anymore, & then sent them another letter at the next renewal date.

I would suggest that you advise in writing by letter that you wish to cancel & keep a dated copy of your letter.

Not saying that this magazine would do the same but some sales staff can be hyenas...especially if on a bonus deal!

regards

R

I've been very fortunate in life in that I have made a good living out of Engineering & Engineering is also my hobby, my passion, I have a copy of Machineries hand book by my bedside. After all these years I still find it interests me & I learn each & eveyday.

I now run my own consulting company, I am a time served Chartered Engineer holding an MSc. In Engineering. (Thats Minor Space Cadet to you!) However, I am at my happiest when turning up some swarf!

On my business card I use my titles, but also use a very old black & white photograph of me at 16 running a gun barrel lathe. ( I find that the photograph keeps my feet firmly on the ground & reminds me daily of where I started,)

Frankly I find that my Msc. & CEng. open doors & gets me work, but what keeps people coming back is a quality product at the right price.

At the end of the day, you are only as good as your last job, or as good as your immediate supervisor thinks you are. This statement holds true for Commercial Engineering just as it does for Model Engineering....with Er indoors being your immediate supervisor.

Never mind all this tosh....get out in the shed......turn up some swarf....its a great leveler!

Regards R

Well full circle then! Oh Chuff & The Merry miller have really drawn the conclusions! The story from Oh Chuff ends with "Who gives a Monkeys" Well obviously your customer does, but if he was such a bright spark why didn't his fix his own system eh! No......there is a large body of "Engineers" in the UK who believe that the title Engineer is being misused. One only has to look at The Linked In data base & read articals on IMECE sites to see people lobying MP,s to have legislation put in place to make it so. To those people I would refer you to my original posting, you are on a hiding to nothing by attempting to progress protection via the lobying route. Graduate Engineers are no better qualified than time served Engineers or skilled model Engineers in terms of real world experience, indeed perhaps less so, & have no right to claim sole use of the name of Engineer.

If however, one wishes to advance oneself & become registered with a Professional body, follow the guidelines set out in the response from The Merry Miller & on the various web sites of Professional Institutes. Once registered, your post nominal granted by the Institute & The Engineering Council is indeed protected by law.

If you need assistance &/or mentoring to follow this route, just ask, I am sure there are any number of Chartered Engineers on this site who would give advise & mentoring.

So.....everybody should in theory be happy, if you want the recognition & letters after your name, the route is open to you. If you don't want to go that route, don't try to get something for nothing by demanding that only Graduates are real Engineers.

So what have you turned up today? Me......I turned up a dummy 1.375 inch by 6 mm pitch lead screw so I can make some spare gear wheels for my TDI. Yes, I know I'm mixing my units...but its all straight in my head....trust me!

6mm pitch gets a real Whizz on doesn't it & watch out the helix angle doesn't bite your six!

regards

R

As I said earlier...a can of worms. My six inch Crescent wrench is bigger than your six inch Crescent wrench! And so it always was with Engineers. But its interesting to note that this reverse snobbery seems to be directed upwards towards Graduates. It hasn't always been so....time served Engineers have always been very protective of their status in life. Can anybody remember The Dilution Bill that was introduced during the wars?

With so many men conscripted into the fighting, Engineers were in short supply in the factories supplying the war effort. At this time the average length of an Engineering Apprenticeship was 7 years & the Old Country just couldn't wait that long for bullets & bayonets...so what to do?

Some old lag in Parliament pondered that whilst it might take that long train a fully skilled Engineer, many of the tasks, if broken down into repetitive basic steps, could be taught in weeks if not days.

So the dilution bill was legislated for, the idea being that some skilled Engineering jobs would be diluted down such that they could be carried out by non skilled people with no previous Engineering back ground. Butchers, bakers, candle stick makers, housewives even....found themselves being trained to operate capstan & turret lathes to aid the war effort, with a single skilled Engineer being responsible to set up several capstans or turrets.

As you can imagine this did not go down well in the Engineering trades & a lot of bitterness & resistance existed for many years, but frankly I'm certain my father didn't care who turned the capstan wheel....just as long as he got some bullets!

At the end of the war, many of these people returned back to their homes & previous professions, however, some of them enjoyed it so much they decided to stay in Engineering.

When I started work in the sixties, many of these guys were still there & in mumbled tones I would be introduced to the work force by the other lads. Oh.....don't worry about so & so....he's just a Dilutee!

Frankly, I didn't know for many years what the word meant...but I knew by the way it was uttered that it sounded bad.

I have always tried to take people at face value, & to me some of these Dilutees were the best turners we had in the shop, perhaps on only a single specific machine...but they were good at what they did. Yet...having worked in Engineering for years, they were forever labelled as Dilutees, never to achieve a skilled wage.

As the decline of heavy Industry started at the end of the sixties, so the rise of the Oil Industry commenced & we started a collaboration with a tool supply company to make drill pipe cross overs. One old cone headed flat belt drive Dean Smith & Grace was modified with a large coolant pump & a spade drill turret so that we could rough out very large & deep through holes in these cross overs. ( That old DS& G must have been over 50 years old then & never missed a lick drilling out 3 to 4 inch holes straight from a centre drill!)

A brand new centre lathe with tapered threading capability was purchased & set up in a special room with new tooling to cut previously unheard of threads such as IF regular 4 threads to the inch & the such.

Now...who was to be chosen by management to take on the task of operating this new machine & cut these threads to exacting API standards? One of the spotty youths just finished their time perhaps......no chance....it went to one of the trusted & reliable Dilutees! Frank Watson....wherever you are...may your Ward Turret never nip up at the headstock!

Downward reverse snobbery indeed....but the right man for the job.

As a side issue, I wonder if the old country actually has the engineering capacity these days to defend itself in terms of supplying ships, planes, boats & bullets? Perhaps we could just lob bankers at the enemy!

You show me an Engineer who doesn't learn something everyday of his life.....I'll show you a damned fool!

Regards

R

This really is an old chestnut that just opens a real can of worms! There have been many discussions in professional forums with a view to protect the name "Engineer" along the same lines as that of Doctor. Frankly I think that people are on a hiding to nothing with this approach as legislation already exists if you wish to use it as a title & the real problem stem from misuse of the name. Dictonary definitions vary but most indicate a person who either designs, constructs or maintains engines & this is probably where its roots are, but these days we seem to have all sorts of Engineers from Refuse Engineer, Sanitation Engineer, Sound Engineer, Software Engineer, when the truth of the matter is that most of these guys are glorified Technicians most of whom could not hold a candle to the average model Engineer in terms of real world Engineering skills. Very much a case of six munths ago I could not even spill ingineur now I are one!

To my mind the best Engineers we have produced are those that have completed full Engineer apprenticeships, not shelf stacking apprenticeships, & then have gone to gain academic qualifications! As an outstanding example watch "The profile of an Engineer" on Utube. That guy is an Engineer, hands on in every department, academic qualifications & membership of a Profesional Institute.

But then again I am biased having served a 5 year apprenticeship as a Fitter & Turner. When I finished my time in the mid sixties like many other spotty youths I thought I was gods gift to Engineering. However, when I started work in another Industry I found there were other guys who had not served an apprenticeship who considered themselves Engineers....yes....Graduate Engineers!

I quickly learned that as far as promotion was concerned in my new found vocation, whilst I could tell the difference between an ice cream cone & a Morse taper at fifty paces, I was pushing it up hill with a stick, battling Graduates for the rest of my career.

Eventually I realised if I can't beat them....well I had better join them...I gained an MSc. & with my practical experience I was able to eventually gain registration as a Chartered Engineer, a title I am indeed proud to use after my name. Far too late to make any real difference in my career, but something I am proud of never the less, & something I would encourage more Engineers to do.

A fully rounded Engineer these days needs to have both academic qualifications, management experience, finalcial accumen & also be prepared to get his or hands dirty with a flair for practical hands on work. Also....dare I mention it here....he or she also needs exposure to the black arts of The Elf & Safety brigade!

As a closing note, it is worthwhile to remember that the first Chairman of IMECHE was not a graduate but was indeed an outstanding Engineer whose name shall be remember long after many of the current batch of space cadets have passed on.

Enough of all this......lets turn up some swarft!

Regards R

Ian, this is the method I was refering to earlier. When lathes did not have Thread Dial Indicators fitted to the lead screw.

With the lathe stopped & the cutting tool clear at the start of the work the chuck was turned by hand until the half nuts could be engaged. The carriage would then either have a dead stop clamped to the bed or the bed marked with chalk. The chuck & head stock would be marked with a chalk line & the lead screw bull wheel marked along with a suitable mark on the lathe adjacent to the mark on the bull wheel.

You now have all the reference points noted to ensure engagement of the half nuts at the correct point.

The lathe can now be started. & thread cutting commences. At the end of the cut disengage the half nuts & return the carriage to the exact mark on the lathe bed. Await the marks on the head stock/ lead screw bull wheel & corresponding marks to be aligned & then re engage the half nuts.

Yes you had to have your wits about you as you are attempting to eyeball two rotating reference points at the same time....but it can be done.....its all we had at the time!

Regards

R

Clive, thanks for your most comprehensive & detailed response which makes total sense to me. I liked your comments concerning pick up from the same position on the bed! Thats how we used to do it when I was a lad working on an old Dean Smith & Grace cone head driven by flat belt from an overhead line shaft powered by a gas engine. A rule would be clamped to the bed as a dead stop, chalk marks would be placed on the chuck & head stock & on the lead screw bull wheel & another fixed point on the lathe bed. Eyeballing all of these chalk marks the half nuts would be engaged when all were aligned coinciding with an eclipse of the sun. If all went well one cut a half tidy thread & this was cutting Imperial! You should remember that reversing out on a line shaft machine was next to impossible without a figure of 8 in the drive belt, either that or you would back out by hand.

I now conclude that for Imperial threads I shall have to reverse out with the half nuts engaged.

For the 8 Metric thread pitches that match the 15 tooth wheel I can use the auto pick up from the TDI.

For all other Metric threads I shall have to reverse out with the half nuts engaged.

I shall now try to locate the other two gear wheels for the TDI from Warco. Wish me luck with that!

John, thanks for the chart from your Crusader however, its totally different to the 1660.

Thanks for all comments & help to date.

Regards R

Hi Boys & Gals, thanks for your comments & suggestions. Some of these have pointed me in the right direction & once I took the TDI off the lathe...well the penny dropped this morning! The boiler plate I was looking for was actually on the TDI but I did not understand it.

The TDI is indeed a three gear jobby, or more to the point can be supplied with any one of three gears, & each gear ratio has a different set of quadrants for auto pick up.

One confusing issue was that the indicator face of the TDI is marked off as O,D, E rather than being numbered 1 to 8.

Hence my 1660 is fitted with a metric lead screw & with a TDI fitted with a 15 tooth gear wheel. (This is the only gear wheel that came with the machine!) This gives auto pick up for 8 metric pitches on points O,D & E. All other metric pitches would have to be picked up on the quadrant point that was used on first engagement of the half nuts.

All Imperial threads would have to be cut using the reverse out method without disconnecting the half nuts.

The only way to understand all of this is to take off the TDI & see which size gear wheel is fitted.

Thanks once again to all who contributed.

Regards

R

Years ago metal stitching was very common for cracks or breaks in materials such as cast iron & there are still companies out there that offer this service.

Its not that difficult to do & a scan of the web will show you the basics.

Regards R

Hi all, does anybody out there own either a Jet 1660 or Warco 1660 gearhead lathe?

I am trying to get detailed information on the thread dial indicator & the manual is only fit for toilet paper!

These lathes will cut both metric & Imperial pitches directly without the need of changing drive wheels but depending on which lead screw is installed I am assuming that the half nuts shall need to remain engaged when cutting the opposite thread to the thread of the lead screw.

The dial indicator is not marked off with the typical 8 quadrants, but has letters & numerals at various angles but not se metrically marked around the circumference.

There is no boiler plate on the gear head to show which thread TPI & or pitch can be engaged at which quadrant setting or numeral setting shown on the dial indicator.

Of course I could resolve by trial & error but wondered if anybody has been this road before?

I could also just ignore the indicator & engage at a single point for any given pitch that matches the lead, but this may well waste unnecessary time waiting for the single point to arrive again. Alternatively I could just leave the half nuts engaged & reverse out, but this all seems a waste with such a fancy thread dial indicator fitted to the machine.

I have scanned the web for other manuals or info, but all fall into the aforementioned toilet paper bracket!

Any ideas? (Please don't confuse matters by discussing conventional indicators, comments must be 1660 specific.)

Regards R

Hi guys. For threading in the smaller sizes, the tailstock die holder really can't be beaten as it enables the die to be held square to the work whilst applying the required end force. 10mm is my cut off size for threading with a button die, above that I will either single point cut or use the Coventry die box. I have had good success cutting 10mm by 1.5 on EN8 using HSS button dies, but equally have had major problems with the same thread & material when using carbon steel button dies. Hence the quality of the button die is indeed critical. Only buy the size you need from a reputable dealer who specialises in taps & dies & if you are going to be cutting a lot in exotic materials then buy HSS button dies. Remember that threading is often the last operation & you may have already invested several hours into your work piece just to "Screw" it up by using a cheap carbon steel button die! I do not use a tail stock die holder under power unless you are using a turret type tailstock. With a conventional tail stock it can be difficult to keep sufficient end force on the button die & the thread just strips at the start. Hence when using a conventional tail stock I bring the die holder up to the work & lock the tail stock to the bed. With the lathe in neutral I use the chuck to manually turn the die holder on whilst keeping pressure in the button die by turning in the tailstock. Once the button die has taken a bite with a couple of threads if will pull itself on & you do not any further pressure from the tail stock. With a HSS button die one can cut a good clean 8mm thread on EN8 easily by hand using cutting oil to reduce friction. With a cheap carbon steel button die on the same material you will find it extremely difficult to turn the button die on by hand indicating that the die is not cutting cleanly even when using cutting oil & if you attempt to use lathe power you will either just turn a nice big chamfer on the end of your work, strip your thread, or cut a very under sized thread. As my old papi used to say penny wise pound foolish!

Regards R

Lathejack, thanks for that & yes I can find the text now. I have two of these lathes, a 1322 here in South East Asia & a 1330 in the UK. Both are the thick end of 10 years old now & whilst they are still performing very well, I sense an overhaul of the head stock is imminent. Both lathes tend to leak oil & the head stock on one has nipped up once or twice. Hence I am planning ahead. I wonder if you would pass on some info for me to assist with my preparations?

1) Was the removal of the spindle & lay shafts reasonable straight forward or did you need to fabricate any pullers to get the gears off & bearings out?

2) Were you able to procure all the bearings & oil seals easily? ( For the lathe in South East Asia I would need to procure all items in the UK before starting a stripdown)

3) How did you address preload on the spindle?

4) Did you address the internal bore of the spindle whilst you were at it? Both my spindles were undersized in the middle & would not pass specified bar stock. I addressed this by line boring in situ?

I would really appreciate any light you could shed on the foregoing.

Regards & Happy New Year from South East Asia.

R.M.Hubbard CEng.